316: What Great Drummers Do Differently - Michi Dreilich

What separates a good drummer from a great one?

Most people would probably think it's timing, technique, or playing everything perfectly.

But the biggest difference is: 

Great drummers make intentional choices. They understand how dynamics, tuning, feel, sound, and even small imperfections can change the emotion of a song.

In this episode, we talk to professional session and touring drummer Michi Dreilich about what great drummers do differently and how musicians can create drum parts that truly serve the song.

Michi spent ten years playing with Blackout Problems and now works as a touring drummer for different artists. He also teaches drums and records custom drum tracks remotely from his own studio, Container Drums. He was previously a member of The Self-Recording Syndicate and worked with us through 1-on-1 coaching to further develop his recording setup, workflow, and drum sounds. 

In this conversation, Michi explains why good drum performances are about much more than hitting the right drums at the right time. We discuss the balance between precision and feel, what a real drummer can add that programmed drums cannot, and how to make bold creative decisions without losing sight of the artist’s vision.

We also listen to three versions of Manel’s song “Lágrimas de Sal”: The original phone demo, a full production demo with programmed drums, and the finished version featuring Michi’s live drums and Benedikt’s final mix. 

In this episode:

• What great drummers do differently
• Why every drum choice should serve the song
• The difference between feel and sloppy playing
• When imperfect timing makes a performance more exciting
• How dynamics create emotion in drum tracks
• How to program more realistic drums
• What real drummers add that samples cannot
• Balancing the artist’s ideas with a session drummer’s creativity
• Choosing drums, cymbals, heads, tuning, and dampening
• Getting great drum sounds in an imperfect room
• Why room-mic placement can transform your recordings
• Comping and editing professional drum performances
• How Michi developed his remote recording studio
• The evolution from phone demo to finished production

Whether you play drums, program them, or record a drummer in your own studio, this episode will help you think more intentionally about the performance and sound your song actually needs.

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If this episode helps you, we’d really appreciate it if you left a rating/review or shared it with another self-recording artist. It helps us reach more musicians, invite exciting guests and keep the podcast going.

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For links to everything we've mentioned in this episode, as well as full show notes go to:

theselfrecordingband.com/316

Michi Dreilich:

instagram.com/michidreilich

instagram.com/containerdrums

https://linktr.ee/michidreilich

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🚀 Want our personal help with your next project?

If you want feedback on your songs, your arrangements, your recordings, or your mixes…

…followed by a clear plan to build your confidence and turn your demos into finished releases...

...plus the professional guidance to implement it all:

👉 Apply for coaching:

theselfrecordingband.com/coaching

We’ll listen to your music, create a custom plan for you, and help you execute it step by step.

And if you want to try what Manel did, let Michi add drums to your song and then send it to us to mix, we can do that, as well! Let's talk!

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If you have any questions, feedback, topic ideas or want to suggest a guest, email us at: podcast@theselfrecordingband.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If the drums suck, the entire production sucks. This is one thing that I've been mentioning a couple of times on this podcast, and I truly believe it. Drums and vocals are pretty much the most important things in most mixes, most productions. The drums are what we move to, what we what kind of carries the energy and the drive of the song. The vocal is what we sing along with, what has the emotion in the lyrics and all of that. And you can get away with a lot of things in production, but you can't get away with bad drums. And now there's different ways to get there, right? You can program your drums, you can play real drums. If you don't have a good way to do it yourself, you can hire people who are really good at this to do your drums for you. And anyone in a band with real people and a drummer there will also know how important it is to have a good drummer or how frustrating it can be to not have one. Luckily, today we are here with an exceptional drummer. His name is Michael Dreilich. He is one of those drummers that just keep fascinating me. I remember the first time I saw a clip of him playing and I heard how he was playing. And there was just something special about it. And it's not just because obviously he can keep, you know, time and he has feel and all of that. And like uh he's technically really great, but like he has his own drumming style. And I'm always saying, like, if when I see him play on like a pop track or something that's even like hip-hop or something outside of the genres that I usually do, it still sounds like a little bit of a you know punk rock drummer to me. It's his own kind of thing. And I don't know, maybe it's just me. Anyway, I'm fascinated by this. We've collaborated on a project before, on a couple of projects, actually. Miki was also a former member of the self-recording syndicate, our coaching community. Um, he's been in bands that you might have heard of, like uh Blackout Problems. Uh, he's played live with you know pretty big artists on big festival stages and and uh was touring quite a bit and is still touring quite a bit. We're gonna talk about all of that. Um please welcome Michi Dreili. Hello, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show here uh today and uh you know share some of your drum knowledge with us.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Wow, what an introduction! Hello, guys. Thank you for those kind words, Benedict. Hello, Manel. And yeah, glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm so so excited for this. We did an episode in the past on my other podcast, the Outback Recording Podcast, uh uh recordings podcast quite a while ago. Um, this is us catching up, or not really catching up, we've been in touch in between, but like this is uh the follow-up episode to one that's been years ago. Uh a lot of things have changed since then. Some things have stayed the same, so I'm excited to do this all over again. Uh as also, as always, I'm not doing this by myself. I'm here with my friend and co-host, Manel Espinosa, Derenguer from Spain. Hey Manel.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Hello, Benny. Today I'm gonna say again that I'm happy, but not because we are back, because we've been back for a good while. So yeah, I don't know if I should say that I'm a music producer and mixing engineer from Spain. Yeah, say it. Uh so yeah, you guys, just in case you don't know, I am a music producer and mixing engineer from Spain. And I'm as always happy to be here and talking with a very special guest today.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Good to have you as always, Manel. Yeah, my name is Benedict Tyne. If you're new to the show, I'm the host of this. I run the platform The Self-Recording Band. I'm a mixing engineer myself, running a mixing studio called Outback Recordings. We work on a lot of songs every year here, and yeah, we do this educational platform where we work with people inside of our coaching, and we also have this free podcast with amazing guests so you can learn to make better sounding recordings from your jam spaces and home studios. Um, now to our guest today, um, Michael, can you please share? And I'm always switching between Michi and Michel. I don't even know what you prefer. I've never asked you, I think.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Um I would prefer Michi, but you can call me whatever. You can call me by my last name too. So that's it's whatever you want to do. Do people do that actually? Uh back in my hometown, they used to do that. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's that's a typical Bavarian thing, right? Yeah, it's a typical Bavarian thing, and they used to do variations with um like the three in my name. So it can get quite funny for them, not for me, but yeah, yeah. I hear you.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

No, I've got to stick with Miki, then that's awesome. Yeah. Uh, can you share a little bit about what you do currently? Like I've mentioned you've you are a touring drummer, um, you've been in bands, you also do remote drumming, um, drum recordings for artists, or at least you have done this. So just give us an update. Like, what does your day-to-day as a drummer look like these days? What are you doing? Um, yeah, like just give us the the rundown.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, um, it's it's always different, but the same. Um mainly I do three things. Um, the first thing is touring with artists, as you've as you've mentioned. Um, I've been uh a member of a band called Black Op Problems for 10 years, and we toured quite a lot. And now I'm doing like um as a as a touring drummer for for solo artists mostly. That's that's like my main life thing. Then I uh teach drum lessons in my studio, um and I do remote recording, and those three things make up my my life as a working drummer, yeah. So love it.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So yeah, like you said, a little bit of the same, but then also different in the way of light. Um you're not part of a of a band right now, other than like when you get hired to play live, right? You're not a part of a of a band at the moment. Correct, correct, correct. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um I know there's been like on and off sort of plans to do that again. I don't know if that's still something you want to do eventually or or not.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

It is still a thing. Um and uh I would love to be in a room again with with people playing loud music, uh like with actual amps and having like um the air being moved in the room, not just by drums, but also by a I don't know, like speaker caps or a a tall bass cap. Uh and um like in my normal touring work, I'm always playing within ears and with uh backing tracks, and it's all very digital sounding, which is not it's not digital sounding, but but it's all um you can there's there's like very little time to break out of that that uh fixed environment, and I kind of um uh want to get into a room and play punk rock like fast punk rock again, um, just for fun. But if something comes out of that, um that'd be cool too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Awesome. Yeah, you you mentioned the punk rock thing. Um, this has always been interesting to me, like I said in the in the intro, you do you do much more than just quote unquote just punk rock. Um, you play for all kinds of artists, but you in my opinion, at least, you always bring your own style to that, and that is always like at least in my the way I perceive it, like pretty high energy, and and there is a certain punk rock, raw, live, high energy kind of element to it. Um, so can you talk a little bit about that punk rock background and whether you perceive it that way yourself? Even I don't even know if that's how you think about it or not, but like there there is something in there, at least in my opinion. So maybe talk about that a little bit so people know where this is coming from.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Sure. Um I mean you're saying that that a drummer has uh his or her unique voice is like one of the best things you can say to a musician in general, I think, because at the end of the day, that's what I think it is about. Um not always, but um, I mean you always have to put context into consideration. And if you're playing for an artist, there's there's not always the room for you to do your thing. So um yeah, you always have to take con context into consideration. And for me, um I grew up listening to California punk bands mostly, like Pennywise and No Fax and all of that fast stuff, and um I've always wanted to play like that, and it it it never left me, I think. And uh the punk rock sound is is is like volume two, it is it is a loud sound, you're hitting the drums very hard, and I think that comes from as I've mentioned before, like being being in a room with actual people that have speaker caps, and you need to get on top of them, so you just have to hit the drums really, really hard so you can hear yourself. And um and it's also for me, I think it was a way to cope with a lot of things and to just get to to to put my energy, whether it is positive or negative at times, into something that is only positive because it's creative in the end, and so like I think all of that makes my my my way of playing come together, like the emotion in it and the the velocity and the volume. Um it feels natural to me. But I also have to say I can play quiet. So if I if if I ever need to play quiet or without a rim shot, I I certainly am able to do that. But my natural go-to is um to play loud. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah. Loud and still balanced. This is the other thing, right? It's still gotta have there's still gotta be a balance between symbols and shells and everything and consistency. Yeah. Um it's also you can it's a visual thing too. It's like kind of weird when I I mean you you hear it when you listen to your your recordings or the clips you post online, like you can hear how you play, obviously. But when I see you play in the clip, it's like it what I see matches the energy that I'm hearing. And it's like you can tell that you just you're in your kind of zone there. I don't know. It's like you're it's it's a performance and it's uh yeah, uh there's a lot of energy in everything you do, and uh it it just I don't know, it just fascinates me. And and uh I think that's also maybe what makes you what's what's an add-on to your ability to be a great live drummer, is that it also is fun to just watch you on stage, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So thank you. Yeah, but there's there's definitely a slight or I think like a a big variation in when you see me playing in my studio, like tracking a song for Manel, for example, I'm much more considered with um like hitting the snare, like the rim shot very consistently, and that has the effect that I'm not really like emoting. Um and when you compare that to a live setting, I want to be like very present. I want to be present for the the artist I'm playing with, and I also want to be like present for the audience. I want to like really obviously I want to give them a bit of a show, but it's but it's not that I'm I'm trying to be I'm I'm not trying to be in the circus or anything. I'm just just just what I feel naturally and just g give into that and uh um just emote, I guess. Yeah. Um but there is definitely variation um in in like a studio performance, quote unquote, and in a live performance, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah. What what what's your take on this fine line between um feel and cool like imperfections and then like distracting mistakes where you like where it's it's getting too loose? Because this is like an ongoing discussion and the debate online as well, where and it also depends on the genre, in my opinion. You know, in some genres the the goal is to be absolutely spot on on the grid and it needs to be mechanical in a way, and then there's others where it needs to be really loose, but there's always this fine line, and and a lot of people that I've talked to and that I've seen comment online and that I've worked with also, they sometimes use the feel thing as an excuse for like actual mistakes or sloppy playing, and it yeah, it's this fine line. So, what's your take on that? Like, how much is how do you know the right amount of you know drifting away from the grid? And when does it become to be when does it start to be a mistake or or a a distraction from from the song?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Good question. Um as you said, it's always a context thing and it depends on the genre, but if if a mistake is distracting from, let's say, the vocal or the overall song or the overall um thing that is important at that time in the song, then I would uh consider to to uh move that or replay it. Um but it for example going into a chorus when I record I often um notice that I'm early, and I think that's just that's maybe because I'm filling before I'm playing a drum fill to going in going into that, and that could be a reason for that, or I'm just excited to get to the to the chorus because it's a good chorus, and um sometimes that that excitement in the drums when they rush a little bit can be pretty cool and can add to um the overall song's excitement, I think. And I also think that now being able to really tell that a person played that is a valuable thing, in in my opinion. But on the other hand, there can also be like gridded drum performances that feel very natural and very emotional because the overheads are very loud in the mix, because I think the the overheads carry carry a lot of emotion in a drum track, and if you really hear somebody like hitting a cymbal very lightly or very hard, it transports a certain thing. So it depends on a lot of stuff. Um but if the mistake is really distracting, I just I I I would fix it, but if it adds to the overall emotion and supports the song, then I just I I I would leave it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Cool. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. Let's talk about that emotion thing a little bit because it might be for our listeners, might be a little you know confusing. Or I I remember when I uh you know started out, I had a hard time knowing if a drum sound fits a song or or how to even manipulate how a song feels by choosing different drum sounds or programming drums differently or recording or playing drums differently. For me, it was just I I remember this really well. Uh for me it was basically just you're hitting things with a stick and hopefully you're in time. And I don't know what that has to do with emotion, it's just like a rhythm, you know? And when people were talking about drums that feel great and whatnot, it was so abstract to me. But then when I heard something and it without knowing what it exactly was, there were performances that that I found exciting and others that I found boring. I just didn't really know what it was about, sort of. So, in your opinion, as a drummer, what are the tools you have available to um, you know, add a certain emotion or energy to a song? What can you do other than hit the right drums at the right time? Like, what are the tools available to you to add a little more to a song and to a drum recording?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

I would say dynamics is a big thing, and that can also mean that every hit is the same, but um you have to think about that. What do you actually want it to be? If you want to have ever if you want to have every snare hit sounding the same, you have to hit it the same every time. But if you wanna have dynamics, you really have to play dynamically, obviously. Um but uh uh dynamics don't stop at the shells, they can especially with symbols. I think it comes down to choices, really, to to think about what do you want out of this crash in the chorus? Should it be like a should it be like um um a quiet um sustainy thing that just is barely noticeable, or do you want like the eighth notes or the quarter notes to be really defined? Because that draws attention and and uh uh draws attention away from the vocal, for example. So I think it comes down to really uh making a choice what it should sound like. And another tool could be playing a rim shot or not, um, because that not only makes a difference in the closed mic of the snare drum, it also makes a difference in the room. And I've I've had to learn this not the hard way, but I I had I really had to learn to play consistent rim shots because I just couldn't do it like three or four years ago. I really had to put effort into that and have it have that be consistent. And uh one engineer just uh uh told me like, hey, if you if you really play loud rim shots, it's gonna be much much easier to to uh to have them poke out in the room mics because it activates the room way more than now playing a rim shot. So all that sonic the sonic choices, like the drum head, the shell material, the stick, um, the microphones, uh the microphone positions, everything adds up to like the big picture, I think. And I mean there's there's I think there's two ways. There's just like just uh doing whatever and just saying, hey, that's what I have, that's my sound, or really trying to pay attention to every detail and just really thinking about what do I want the whole thing to be, and then um going through every step and deciding what the right thing to do is. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah, so it's about being intentional in a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

It's about being intentional, yeah. Yeah, but that that for me that took a lot of time. I really had to um uh re-engineer what I like as a drummer and how my favorite drum sounds came together. Not that long ago, I I did not really know what like shell material in a snare drum what difference that actually makes, and what my favorite drum sounds, what type of shells are those. I I I just didn't know and I didn't really care. And I really had to go deep into the search bars and try to to figure out what they were using, and at one time it just it it just clicked in my head, and it made sense that I'm like chasing one type of drum sound because I grew up with with that, and that drum sound has certain components, and now I'm more aware of what components those those are. So, yeah, do your research also.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, yeah, totally, and like building your taste in a way, uh for like listening to a lot of stuff, then trying to figure out how those sounds came together. What fascinates you about them in the first place? Um, do your research about yeah, the material, the or everything. It's like a drum sound is a is uh like so many things go into drum sound. It's it's the playing, it's the room, it's the drums, it's themselves, it's the head choice, it's the tuning, it's the mic positions, like all of that. And so yeah, you you kind of have to go down these rabbit holes for a while and like figure out what all those things do and how they impact the the final result, and then um you come up with your own version or your own combination of all these things and ultimately build your style that way, yeah. And and then apart from like just the sound and and the dynamics and all of that, there's obviously the timing thing as well, the feel thing. There are, I guess at least I don't I don't know if all of the drummers do certain things intentionally and like in a planned way, or if it's also just part of who you are that maybe one person is just leaning more towards like a laid back kind of style, and maybe others are rushing a bit more. I don't I don't know how much of that is like planned and intentional, and how much you just can't help but play it that way. So, you know, there's the timing and feel thing as well. There's not with every drummer, there are great dramas that have a pretty transparent kind of style, but there's a lot of dramas as well, where they have their own unique signature thing almost, or the way that the way they do fills, or you know, certain things like that. So maybe that's that's that would be the next question. How much do you like of course the gear thing and the sound thing? Yeah, you gotta be intentional, do your research, do all the things you just mentioned. But when it comes to the actual playing, you certainly also learn to play drums properly and you practice and you have a lot of knowledge there. But then how much is just intuition and just the way you think or feel music?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

For me, I think a lot of it is intuition. Um when I'm getting a song to record, um I listen to it like on the train or in the car for for like two or three times, and I just go immediately to to playing playing it and just seeing what what feels good and uh what feels come out if there's if there's room for that, if there's like a clear um perspective of the artist or the band, hey here's programmed drums, we need every stroke to be there and every every fill to be just as we've programmed it, that is obviously a bit possible. But if I'm getting like more of a um uh free uh uh if I can like play my stuff or if if I'm allowed quote unquote to to to put to feel it out a bit, it's intuition eighty percent. Yeah. And then Yeah. Sorry? No, I was just I was just saying interesting. Sorry, go on. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's it's really it's intuition eighty percent. Yeah, and then the f for me mm the first thing I play or the first take, I really had to learn that to really enjoy the first take um and really take that serious and not and not or take that seriously and not not just be like, yeah, it's a first take, let's see if everything works. Like really try to um to enjoy that first take and see what comes out. And sometimes when I feel like I have a song ready, or if I have a drum take ready, if I did a couple of takes and I'm like, hey, I'm fine with all of that, I do one more take and just just let loose a bit and see what comes out. So it's always a balance of following your intuition and then also listen to what you've recorded and try to look at that not with the drummer glasses on, but just as a producer or as the artist or as as purely just a listener and just really be honest. Does this work? Yeah, and also what what what happens too is that I play something or a take and I just before I send it out, I s I subtract things, I make it easier. Because I can always add more if if if that's what they want, but um I also check if if the things I do are really necessary for the song to work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Serving the song, kinda, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

One thing that I talk about with our with the people that we coach and with um artists that I mix for a lot is when when people program their own drums and they're not a drummer, um, one of the biggest hurdles is to learn to think like a drummer and uh to understand drums as a whole, like how it works and and all and all of that. And so what would be your recommendation for someone? You know, how can you learn this? I mean, obviously you can take drum lessons, maybe that's a good idea, maybe that's what you would recommend. But maybe there's other ways as well that someone could do just to understand the instrument better and and and you know, when they're doing their first demos and pre-production, um, how can they get to a spot where they can program drums that sound somewhat like real drums without, you know, the ob I mean, the obvious thing is the octopus stuff and you only have two arms and two feet, you know. But like other than that, there's still things that I don't know. I I hope I hope you know what I mean. Like if people are not drummers and they don't understand the instrument, they're having a hard time programming something that makes sense. And so they sometimes ask me, like, how do you how do I learn this? Do I just have to stick with the loops that come with my drum sampler? How can I create my own drum tracks if I'm not a drummer? So is there any is there any recommendations for someone like that? How would you approach this? And how would you like approach to to speak to learn to speak drum?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Learn to speak drum. I like that. Um what comes to mind is take into consideration that it is a like playing drums for me is a flow thing, and it always takes time for the limbs to go to certain places, and when you have a like a MIDI thing open, like everything is very close to each other. But if you have let's call it a normal drum setup, it is can be quite far going from a rag Tom to a China symbol. Um playing 16th notes at 200 BPM. That can be quite far, like as a travel time for the limbs. So maybe a tip would be always to really picture a person playing those parts with a normal drum setup that is not set up like a MIDI library. Um, so that could be a tip. Maybe watch drum videos, maybe um go even as far as have someone record your parts, or maybe I mean you can program drums, but you can also um ask a drummer to give you like an opinion on those programmed drums and help out with making it sound more realistic. Um I've never done that, but I'd be certainly open to it. I I I I don't have to play on your song. If you want my input on your song, that can be whatever, that can be the arrangement, even. Um, and if you want input on your program drums, no, I've did that. Sorry, I've did that a couple of times with a good friend of mine, and he sent me like programmed drums and was like, Does this make sense? Um, is would this be playable? And would you do that? were the questions. And I I really enjoyed giving him input, and I've I I I felt good about that. And I think that could be also a good way for drummers to be to have like a small place in today's music, just getting like asked what we think.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, I mean it sounds obvious, but like if you don't know how to do something, ask someone who knows, and then you know, and then they would sorry, it can be your ideas.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

I'm I mean, if somebody that that has never sat on a drum kit program stuff, that can be pretty cool. And the the translation part of programmed drums that don't sound like real drums at all to a live kit can be a pretty pretty cool process, and that is happening already and has happened for for a couple of years. If you take like hip-hop and rap music, all all the the the note repeat stuff that that was done on um on MPCs, for example, translating those fast patterns to to a real hi-hat is really hard, but it it it kicks your ass. You you you really have to practice your your rudiments, um like your your your snare stuff, your 16th notes, your 32nd notes and stuff, to really accurately represent a trap hip-hop groove on real drums, and that whole process can lead to more creativity, um, essentially. And and so you don't always have to know exactly what you're doing on a drum kit when you're programming. But if you wanna if you if you're going for real sounding drums, maybe consider asking a drummer what he or she thinks.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, I love that. And and on the whole topic of like real drums versus programmed drums in general, um, what do you think are the advantages? So let's assume someone does that and they know how to program drums very well and they get it to sound realistic and all of that. What would what would be the advantage then or the difference between that and then actually hiring a drummer to do it for them?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

I think the main difference could be the ideas that could come to life when hiring someone real, like a real drummer, if you're open for that. Um the ideas and also the sounds can be better. I mean, it's hard to beat a good MIDI library these days. Not that I am capable of that, not at all. Um, like with mixing, like with raw sounds, I'm I'm confident now, but um that's that's hard to beat. But like if you want to have something that maybe only you have a certain style, there's something else there.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

You know, the program drums um do not get excited about your music. Oh yeah, you don't have feelings at all. And even you know, even besides all the technical stuff and also the you know the ideas and the style that a real drummer can bring to your song, there's something else, and that is that the drummer is a person, and if you're working with a person that you like, a person that also likes your music, that creates a special bond that you're never ever gonna have with digital drums. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, no, that that's really that's great. It's sometimes it's about the experience, just maybe just as much, sometimes more, sometimes less, but it's also about the experience and not just the result. It's just more fun to work with people and instead of doing everything on your own, and yeah, that's totally a part of it as well. Um can motivate you to finish projects, it can hold you accountable to have another person involved. That's another thing. Some many people never finish their stuff, you know, and the more people are involved, the more likely you are to actually pull it, pull through and like uh follow through and finish it. Um and then one thing also that that stuck out here when you were talking about this, Miki, was you said it's hard to beat the MIDI drums, but then I was thinking, what does beating the program drums actually mean? You know, it's like we sure they are mixed or processed if you use any precess uh presets and stuff, like really well, but kind of in a vacuum, you know, because there's no such thing as an isolated drum mix unless it's a solo drum thing that you're releasing. So it's not serving any song, it's just someone did it to make it sound impressive, and yes, it sounds good, but it's not necessarily the best choice for your drums. So real drums, even if they in an A-B comparison without music, might sound less punchy or smaller or whatever, they could still be a better fit for the song. And maybe even the fact that it's a little more raw or whatever is actually better. And so yeah, there's it in music, as with art in general, it's hard to have a clear better or worse at a certain, you know, past a certain level. It's just good drums, professional sounding drums, and they're all different. What matters is that it matches uh your style and and your song, and it serves the song. It's so impressive drums for sure, but not necessarily the best kind of choice, maybe. And and so I don't think that your job as a drummer is to necessarily beat a MIDI drum library, it's to do the best for the song. And yeah, and you understand what I'm getting at with this? It's like hard, hard to hard to like define what beating that actually means. But I still agree with you, it's very hard to beat it because if you think about it, you know, the best engineers and producers and drummers and drum techs in the world come together to create these libraries. And of course, super hard to be better than that. But again, what what is better in the context of your music?

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yeah, I totally agree. And what I also I think I meant by by beating that is like the first impression you get, and especially with when you work with bands or artists that are much younger than I am or that we all are, yeah. And like people that did not grow up in rehearsal spaces with loud drums, they maybe have never heard a real drum kit that isn't processed, and like raw drums, if you hear them, they that that it takes a certain um you have to imagine the finished product in a way. And I'm not sending out I I do send out completely raw stems, of course, but I also send out a mixed drum stem that you can just drag into your your session. Um, but if people have no experience with um live drums or or like with the harshness of real symbols, um it it can get a bit like distracting or a bit uh heavy on the ears for some people. So that's what I meant by beating it. Um because the MIDI libraries they're just they're they're ready, ready to work. And if you feel like you need like a Travis Barker sound, and you just type in Travis Barker and drag that thing in, and um there you have it. Yeah. Maybe we should we should just do uh our own library.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally, totally, totally we should. Um, it's actually a lot of fun doing that. We did a mini library like that in the houseboat studio in Hamburg where we had a lot of fun coming up with some some unique tones there. And yeah, I also know it's a lot of work to do that and to do it correctly. But um, but yeah, the the the problem with any of those things is I mean, we all use samples in many, many of our productions, even if it's real drums, we layer in samples and all that. That's just part of modern music production. And not just modern, it's always been done. It's it was just way more difficult to do that in the 80s or the 70s compared to now. Um, but like the problem with any of that is always, like I said, the creating something like that in a vacuum and make it so that it works in different scenarios versus being super intentional and specific about the one song that you're working on. Um and I like to make I like you know to make both production decisions and maybe do things that are a perfect fit right now, but wouldn't work on any other production. And this is more of what you what you get when you work with a real human and you collaborate in ways like that. It's not it's just less generic. And I'm not saying you can't get great results with samples, I'm just saying that this is part of the advantage of of working with someone to create the perfect drums for that specific song. Yeah. Um, another interesting topic here is how much the balance between playing what the artist wants versus bringing in your own ideas. And this can even be like a dynamic within a band. Like if you are in a band, and I remember this from my own bands that I was a part of, where when I wrote a song on the guitar, I already had the drums in mind. Kind of it could never like really isolate those things. I can think like a drummer, I can drum a little bit myself. And when I the moment I come up with a riff, I already know what I want the drums to be, sort of. I can't help but like have the full picture. And that's kind of pretty difficult for that. It was always difficult for our drummer because when I presented the song, he did his own thing, of course, and the way he heard the riff. And I was like, yeah, that could be an option, but no, like this is what the song wants to be. And then, you know, and I was totally not open to his ideas just because it was already done in my head, and which can be frustrating for the drummer, but I had a very hard time accepting any new input because I knew what I wanted it to be. And so I don't know, like this is a dynamic within the band, and and then especially when you hire someone else, people might be hesitant to do that because they're afraid that their own ideas uh will be lost and and that you or someone else will will put their thing on it, you know. And so, how do how do you manage? How do you navigate this?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

That's I think it's very hard to manage. Um, some people say, Man, it's easy, just just just serve the music, serve the song, and I would totally agree. Um when I think about my own taste in music when it comes to bands, I wanna hear every person in that band contribute to the style of the music. And I wanna I wanna hear every ghost note Chad Smith is playing in the Red or Chili Peppers because it's part of the sonic identity of that band. And so it can it it can also be like details, maybe I don't know how that I don't know how it works with the chili peppers, how they write songs. You gotta ask Rick Rubin. But um it it it can be like the details that make the difference. And what I would say is you always have to be willing to do, to try out everything, and just to be honest with yourself and with everybody involved, what is the best thing for the song. Um and uh when it comes to the remote recording thing, uh people are higher hiring you to to to to to contribute to the song. So uh I think you should always start with what is there already, and then uh depending on your relationship with uh the artist or the band, you you sort of you can try things or you or not. You you you sort of have to decide for yourself. It's it's really hard for me to give a advice on that, um, because it always depends on the context on and on the situation and on everybody involved. Um, there have been times where I wanted to to really play something and really fought for it, and it worked out, and sometimes I did that and then in the end just said, hey, let me replay that and let's use your idea, it's way better for the song. So yeah, it's really hard for me to give to give advice. You have to see that on a on a on a day-by-day or on a on a situation-based um thing. Yeah. It's really hard for me to give advice on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Yeah, it's a little bit of like learning how to trust um and let go in a way, but then also know that you are gonna respect the artist, and if they really don't want to let go, you're probably fine just doing what they want and you know, adding a little bit of like basically adding as much as you you're allowed to add to the production. It's similar to when you hire a mixer or producer, you know, you uh you know, if you're asked to produce, then usually you do more creative work. If you're asked to just engineer, you probably do what the artist self-producing, you know, wants, and you just it's a little it's communication, learning how to trust on the artist side, but then also learning how to serve the artists and not crossing those lines if they really don't want to, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Yeah, and I I always try to be as open as possible and really put that out on the line. Like, that's one of the first things I ask people who who uh who write me about recording drums is like how much of my thing, quote unquote, do you do you want? Do you want your thing to be there just played by me? That is completely fine, and I'm more than happy to do that. And how much of my kind of fills do you want? Um, so and I really encourage people to be very, very honest and to really say what they want because that will save us time in the end, and I'm not um you you I'm I'm not hurt if if you say hey this is this these are the drums, I want like every every stroke to be how I programmed it, but with your drums and your sound and maybe your feel. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

So I have a question here. Um because we're gonna talk about that uh a little bit more later on, but uh you know Benedict Mihi and me, we've worked on a song, right? And I've worked later on, I've worked with Mihy on many other songs. So my question for you, Mihy, is uh the way you worked with me, where is where is that in that scale uh you just mentioned? Like I'm am I one of the artists who gives you a lot of freedom, or am I one of the artists who doesn't give you that much freedom?

SPEAKER_00 41:42

I would say you there's there's there's a lot of trust in both ways in that uh in that relationship. And I would say also both. Um you are you you you always tell me if you want to have a thing just like the demo, and but you always say hey, um I also want you to be yourself on this song. So I would say for me it's the perfect mixture because you're you're you're very you're very clear in what you want, I would say. Yeah, but also you've I've I've pitched you um a couple of arrangement ideas and you were open to that, and that that takes I think a lot of trust um as an as as an artist and like being very open as an artist, um to to to be able for a session drummer to pitch you ideas about the arrangement because that was that's not really your job as a session drummer. Um but in in the bands I've played in and uh how I think about music, I always think about the arrangements and I I I just like doing arrangements and um but what you basically let me do is cut up your demo, and that takes uh that takes a lot of trust and and willingness to let happen. So big up Manel.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Thank you. No, I was just curious like where I was in that spectrum. Um because I think you know the thing is that when I make my songs, I'm also the producer, so I have a as you said, I have a clear idea of what I where I want to go. But I really like the way you you play drums and I know that you're gonna have things to say, and I think we've been learning this with time. As I always say also with my production uh work, uh it's not enough with only one song. We need to work consistently to like know each other. Now I know you way better as a drummer than. with the first song. Uh and I really appreciate the you know the creative input you can bring to the table and that makes me also change uh the song basically.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for being open to stuff like that. And yeah I've I've never really done that with a sort of remote recording artist that I've played for. So um yeah thank you for for trying that.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

And then as I as I said before there's this uh I would say even more important uh aspect which is that whenever I've worked with you I can feel the excitement in in you because you really like the the songs and I can feel that and there have been other moments where I've worked with other drummers and like the result has been also great. You know they were great drummers but it felt more like it felt colder in a way and I think with you it's been special because I felt we really connected uh with regards to the music and that is of course it's important that you play to a professional level right but that last little thing there that is even more important I think because like now we have this connection not only personally but with the music and I can feel that in the songs when I listen to the songs.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah yeah me too me too um I think it makes the the the music better having having a connection with the people you're making music with um that goes for life obviously too if there's a certain dynamic on stage and um yeah but but also for the studio. If if if I know what the song is about I I I I will play differently of course and um if I have a feeling for the person for the artist I I I will also play differently and I I have done these like also these sort of cold colder colder sessions um and it it it works too but um yeah I just I I like connecting with people over music and then being part of music is one for me makes me feel really really good and obviously it makes us all feel good that we are that we can do this in the first place. I just feel like I'm I'm I must I'm I'm really myself when I'm within music in in a way and I I just I just love to I I really love to do it. I really love to play and sometimes obviously certain parts feel like work but um most of the time it is it is really fun to do that and most of the time you work with really great people like you Manil and like you Benedict so all the boxes checked oh so much love in here yeah that's great.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

No but I agree it's so much about the people as well um the the process and everything. Yeah totally agree with everything yeah um I would I w I don't want to uh interrupt though Manel if there's any follow-up questions on that topic before I move on to the next on my list.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

No I think we can move on.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Okay good so the the next one on my list would have been um one part of the puzzle that we briefly touched on and that is the the drum setup tuning selection of like drum skins and all of that and I know that when we were working together inside of our coaching we were going through you know a little bit of a setup phase there where you tried different pieces of the kit and different spots in the room different mic positions different tunings and all of that um and when you were when you started out it was already good obviously it was already good you had you you have you have your taste you have years of experience as a professional drummer so that's clear but then you still uh tweaked a bunch of things experimented a little bit and I feel like you um landed on something really really cool there and it probably has evolved still since we did that and I saw posts of you where you had a a different kid set up and so I'm I'm just curious overall in that on that um in that whole journey that whole process whether it's ever gonna be finished and done or if you just keep trying new things and experimenting and how important the whole drum setup itself is for you even um you know there's different philosophies as well like what what are you what is your take on all of that like the the the instrument itself how you position it in the room the mic placements all of that so much goes into that and nothing at all goes into it like both at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Interesting um because I I like to overthink stuff so I I can go into every little detail and think about um a snare bottom mic or for days if I want to yeah um but what I found out is how like the the the sheer position of the drum kit in the room for me is very important. How do I feel in certain spaces of the room and I found that when I'm close to a wall I don't this this doesn't feel good and so I I I put the drum kit in this one spot where the floor is like uneven a bit so it's it's hard to set up and you have to to do some tricks to to to have it be even but it just it feels the best and it feels the biggest um not necessarily in the low end type but just in the overall vibe of playing that spot where I'm at now in the room with the drum kit just feels the best to play it feels the biggest and so that's that's for the whole where does the drum kit uh land in the room and then um I think I found a good setup for my studio that that um gets out all the things that are good about that studio because there's a lot of uh stuff that is not that good about that studio um but one thing I really like is I have a hallway which is adjacent to to my studio and I have the door open just like like about 10 centimeters like a certain um thing and I have two large uh diaphragm condensers out there and those make let's a lot of what you hear online of my drum sound is is is those rooms I have them pretty loud and that's like a really I I even would go as far as call that a feature of my room. Yeah I agree and it I I really try to say hey this is what I've got and it's not about what I could possibly buy it's it's about what do I have now and what what is the best not the best thing but how can I make this sound like myself a and B how can I make this how can I make this be usable for people to mix and I think I've I I've found like a good middle ground between the both and I have like with gear I have two snare drums in that room and that's not a lot for for a a recording drummer and they're the they're made of the same material so um yeah they're both brass snares. Yeah but as of now everything that I got to record on was in that genre where a brass snare is for me I think the best choice so it always worked out and um what I've also learned in in in in the coaching program is how important phase is and that was a real game changer for me. I I mean I always knew that phase is important but if you go to the process of aligning by hand every drum track and and hearing what what what kind of a difference that makes it was pretty great um to to be able to do that. And yeah uh what else?

SPEAKER_01 52:42

That was a lot like I actually had I I I actually have follow-up questions um because first of all I love the fact that you are you know such a humble guy and all that but I also think you're kind of underselling yourself sometimes and like when you talked about your room there um you know your stud of course every studio room is imperfect in a way like every room has problems and even the best rooms are not perfect and of course you're not you're not running like I don't know we just talked to Kyle Hoffman at NRG you know it's not a million multi-million million dollar like recording facility that you record drums in. So of course it's gonna be uh imperfect but also pretty much every single drum room is imperfect and I want to say that your your rooms uh sounds like if you if you didn't tell anyone any of those things nobody would ever question it like it sounds great because of how you position things in there the time you spent optimizing that the thing you figured out with the broom mics and so I just want to say that because when you say you know there are a lot of things about my room that are not ideal I want people to know it sounds like a great recording room and you've done everything you can to optimize it. I still love the fact that you're like that and you're not you know bragging about stuff you don't have so that's I I love that um but you know I I still feel like I have to tell people that it sounds absolutely fantastic in there. And what I also think is what you are describing is not at all it's like like you said it's a feature. It's not at all a bug with the the roomx out there. I had a similar situation like my small live room here in my studio it's not a big live room it's pretty dead and you don't get an exciting drum room sound out of that but I have a chamber next to it where it did the exact same thing. And even Kyle Hoffman that I just mentioned where we talked about um we we talked to him about the NRG rooms they have some of the best rooms in the world uh but even him he said like that one of his quote unquote secrets or favorite things to do is that he puts the drums in a smaller booth and leaves the door open to the bigger space and separates the the two and I think that's a such a cool thing to do and because of many many reasons and especially the whole mixable thing you mentioned making the things usable in the mix I really like to have the ability to blend those things to my liking and like having a dry upfront you know controlled sound around the kit but then being able to blend in the big sounding room mics is really cool because not always do you want the entire big massive live room in all of the the close mics and the overheads and everything. It can be super nice to have those controlled and quieter but then you can blend in the the rooms you can automate things you I kind of feel it's best of both worlds. And then there's some productions that don't even need the big live room they need to be super dry and close and if you only had one giant room you'd have to do a lot to get it out of some of the recordings. So you kind of can do both in there. And I think that's absolutely a feature and and and you are very lucky to have a room where this works really well because it doesn't in every room but your hallway mics combined with the dry it's like the it sounds like the drums are in a really nice big purpose built drum room and you're very lucky to have that and you know so uh it was it's it's super cool to mix those they they work really well in a mixed context and um so for everyone you know with your home studios and jam spaces if you have the option to leave the door open and you have some adjacent room uh try putting room mics in there and see what it sounds like it it could be the thing that makes your drums come alive you know so yeah and you can always experiment with um the angle of the door and how much cymbal bleed gets out and so I've I've spent a couple of days on that alone. Yeah two days but still and I remember there were like different spots also didn't you like when we went through the soundcheck thing I think you had a um a room mics kind of halfway between that door and the drums and then some out there and then some other position out there.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

Like you spent some time figuring out spots for those room mics as well right yeah I did I what I now have is um the stereo the stereo rooms in the hallway and I have uh a mono room um up like in front of the kit or front of kit mic to sort of fill out that middle ground um and yeah I'm I'm I'm really happy how how it sounds and it was it it it it was a long way when I when I listen to what I've done like a couple of years ago or at the beginning of me trying to get drums into a computer it's it's um I I really feel good about um how it sounds now and uh yeah and I think the the underselling comes from just the comparing to other people's studios and um of course that's not a good good hobby to have um but yeah um don't do that and I'm saying that to myself every day no but I it's it makes you so much more believable and also it's part of what I like about about you and and other people who are like that as well and you know we are we all every creative except for the maybe super confident ones but we all struggle with imposter syndrome sometimes we all compare ourselves to everyone else out there.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

So I think people can relate and um you know but I just I just don't want anyone to think that your drum is in any way worse or inferior to any like other drum room. It's just different. Like we said like what's better or worse. It it can it either works with your song or it doesn't but it's you wouldn't question it if you hear it. And it also gives people hope in their own you know home recording studios or maybe there's a drummer listening to that who also wants to do a similar thing you can make most rooms work. They're all different and you have to lean into the strengths and and and avoid the weaknesses but like it can it can work and you don't have to have a really expensive building and can still get exciting drum sounds so yeah. About the whole setup um how important is you know the or yeah it is important we know that but like let me ask a different question. How much time do you spend you know swapping out drum skins, tuning them again and all of that? I've seen very different philosophies of session drummers when it comes to that like if you talk to any engineer, drum tech, producer, like pretty much everyone will tell you yeah we put on new heads before each drum session we bring a drum tech in like if the budget's there, we'll tune everything we might even do it differently from song to song. We tune multiple times a day there is like it's like super super important. But then I also know working session drummers who just out of pure you know time reasons and budget reasons and efficiency reasons, they don't change their drum skins every single day and then for multiple projects especially if you work with different artists all the time it gets a really expensive it takes a lot of time like where do you land on this for your own projects maybe and then also like working for others and how do you manage to keep it reasonable in terms of budget and time but still get a good sounding you know sound every single time you record like that's a I I that's always the thing that fascinates me about session drumming um how how do you pull that off? I'm used to the whole always new drum skins, always tune them from scratch kind of thing but I imagine if I was a drummer and I did that every single day I wouldn't get anything done really for artists. So let us know how how how do you navigate this? How do you make sure it sounds great but also you stay sane and you're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah good question and a hard thing to deal with one thing up front is um or one thing I have to mention is that I have a studio setup that is just purely dedicated to studio work and I really try not to practice on on that kit that much and and that is that is quite a luxury for me that I just got myself like two two kids a live kit and and a studio kit for those reasons. And then with changing the hats I think it's a it's a matter of context again. If you're playing rock music um after a certain time a snare hat will have less attack um I think that's just a fact and if you if you've been playing drums for quite some time you sort of know know the sound when a hat dies and then it's just your responsibility to change it. And I like to change snare hats quite often live I do it every four to five shows and in the studio when I have like a batch of songs let's say three or four songs and I'm doing a song a day I try to get through those songs with one snare hat and I use a tune bot to um to get back to tuning so if I have to do um like more takes or revisions um that is a big that's a that that's a big helper in in my studio the the the tune bot and for Tom's kind of the same thing you kind of notice when when they are dying and then there's you you should be changing them. I mean it does cost money of course but it it just sounds better. But if you're doing like an indie track or a a dead drums kind of song it's it can be even better to have like skins on there or drum heads that are years old. So it it always depends on the context but what what I do and what my sound is I like to change hats quite often and it's yeah I I I don't I mean I kind of like it it's it's a bit like meditation um for me and I I I I love trying out different hats and different tunings. That's what I recommend too to like all my fellow drummers um just take time and tune every drum the kick the snare the toms tune them in different ways try out different stuff try out different dampening methods try cutting up moon gels um put them on different spots on the head try no dampening that's what I do in the studio I try to to like for rock songs I really try to not dampen the drum as much even if it sounds crazy without music it can be pretty cool and it can help the snare poke through the mix. So I would say use your ears and if you think you have to change the hats if it sounds like you have to change the hats just just go ahead and change them.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Yeah yeah the uh the tendency to over dampen drums is definitely a thing most people think it they are afraid of like letting it ring a little bit and letting it you know be a little more alive and um and I can underestimate how much of that gets swallowed anyways in the in the context of a mix and how much you need to keep the the shells alive. So that's a good good piece of advice there. And then even with like you mentioned yeah that there are situations where old heads are not a problem but I I personally think that even there um new drum skins but then dampening them intentionally might still sound better sometimes you know oftentimes than than like actual old skins just because you have a more precise stick attack and you can be more intentional about the tuning and like but but yeah I pretty much agreed with everything you said there and I I still find it fascinating you know to you you have to be just really you have to get really quick and know your setup really well to be able to pull that off I think as a session drummer. You have to do it quickly and and know what to do to get to the sound you want. There's no time for like days of trial and error if someone's waiting for your tracks and the next one's already booked and like yeah I get that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Especially and if you don't have like years of touring experience you have to just or you can just um take days out of your week or or like time slots out of your week and just practice tuning. That's what I tell like students of mine too practice tuning. You are in your room you are in your safe space nobody's gonna hear it you're not you're not gonna be embarrassed uh on a festival stage checking your floor tom. Yeah I think that's where like the over dampening comes from like um life engineers embarrassing drummers on big PAs with ringy snares and and and ringy toms yeah um I might be kidding I might be that's that's part of it that's part of it for sure. Um yeah yeah so just just practice tuning you you you can't hurt a drum I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Yeah great piece of advice what's your favorite method of controlling or dampening uh drums if you ever want to do that using moon gels or snare weights or other techniques what's your favorite thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

I've I've tried a lot and certain things work and others just don't I I really would like the snare weight things to work for me but they just don't. Oh interesting um I think it's too much material laying on top of the head and sometimes even the material um bouncing off the head can get into the mics and that just does not sound good. And the magnet in it, I've had it multiple times live When I was just going for it and it just going up and staying there. And for for a time for for for like one festival season, I just ripped out the magnets. But um that's not really a good thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

So you talked about you're talking about the leather snare weights thing. Well, it's great, but there are different products that they have. They also have the ones where it's like a little piece out of a drum skin, basically, that's on there, and then they have one like the big metallic, like that square block thing, the heavy one.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:34

Yeah, but you have to buy another thing to make that work with die casts and my favorite thing to dampen still is moon gel, and cutting up moon gels is I think the best way to dampen drums. And experiment if you're playing rimshots, try putting a small piece um between the the locks you're hitting the most, or on the locks you're hitting the most, like where your rim shot lands. That makes a huge difference in the overtones of the snare. And then um with the toms, try you can try the cotton ball thing. I don't really like that. I found that I I I I don't want to I want to get rid of the sustain in a different kind of way, um but yeah, there's that there's so many options. But for me, a classic moon gel is is the best thing. Because I also I mean don't listen with your eyes, that is very important. But um I saw like like old footage of Taylor Hawkins doing like the cut-up moon gel thing, and I'm and the wasting light drum sound is one of my favorite drum sounds, so I'm I'm like that's that must be part of the sound. So I'm cutting up moon gels.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Yeah, and I I absolutely agree. I would even if I decide that I need an entire moon gel, I would still rather like cut it up and place four pieces of them around the snare than having just one big one in one place. So and oftentimes a little piece of it is all that it needs, anyways. And so I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's not about getting rid of the ring, but just shortening the sustain of the ring. I think is is is yeah thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

You ever had success with like removing um Tom resonant heads completely? Did you ever do that or try that? Do you like that kind of sound?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

It's fun, I think. It's fun if you're playing like fast, fast stuff because there's because the tone is very short, of course. And I haven't experienced uh or I haven't experimented with micing it from underneath as they used to do, I think. Yeah, um I think it would be fun, but there's really no application from for for me in like in my world. Um I just like a good good tom tone. I think sizes are very important. I used to play big sizes because all my favorite drummers played big sizes, and I was like, that's the thing to do, I guess. And I've now landed on a very boring 22-inch kick drum, a 12-inch ragtorm, and a 16-inch floor tom for pretty much everything. Because I because I think the 22 is is flexible enough to do anything you want. Um, it's a good rock bass drum. Um, you can play fast stuff on it. Um the depth is very important too. I think a 14-inch depth is the perfect thing. Um and for like the smaller toms, they just I I think they fit in the songs I play, they just fit better than like a 14 and an 18-inch tom. Um because they're just the pitches match the songs better, I think, and you can really m make out what is being played. And um yeah, think about the two. Also, symbol sizes have gone down for me too. And I I used to play quite complex sounding symbols, like dark, dark symbols, and um I really found that um the symbols I play now sit in the songs way better because they don't they are they're not as like rich and complex and don't take take up so much frequency um than my old symbols. So it's it's it's so much that goes into drums and a drum sound. Uh it's it's it it would be like another hour of us going into every detail.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

Yeah, totally. No, I I just want but basically I just wanted people to know that that that there's so much, it's so many pieces that make up a good drum sound, and that this is it it's normal that it's overwhelming in the beginning and that you have to you know learn one step at a time, but it's just not it's just a lot if you want to be intentional and just picking a preset is fine for a demo, whatever, but if you want to create your own drum sounds and you want to be intentional about that, it's just really uh it's very rewarding, but it takes quite a bit of learning and research and work to to get there because you gotta nail the selection of drums, the tuning, the setup, the mics, positioning, the room. And the same thing applies to digital digital drums as well to a degree because you can do those same things inside of a sampler, not everything, but many of those things. And so, yeah, thank thank you for for going into all of that. And um yeah, and if you don't ever want to worry about any of that stuff, you can of course contact someone like me and then he will take care of all that stuff for you, right? That's the whole point. Um yeah. What two more little questions before we get to the because we want to get to like a little audio example that we've prepared of a before and after of a song that we've collaborated on. Um, I got two more things here. Uh could could be quick, could be not. I don't know. Uh so what's the first thing that you teach your students, the drum students you have? What's the kind of the first thing everyone needs to learn before you can do anything else?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:55

Oh uh wow. The first thing. I always say you cannot hurt the drums. Just make contact with them, just explore them. That's that's usually if someone comes to me that has never played drums before, um, I'm just I'm just saying to them, just sit on a drum kit and make contact with every surface and feel it out and just just see what it what it sounds like and w what you're getting back in in an energy level. Um that's one of the first things. And the more advanced students um I've had students that come to me um uh who want to learn how to play loud um because they just haven't practiced that a lot. And um for that it's like, do you practice with ear protection? If the answer is no, I'm like you should be practicing with ear protection because you you you're gonna need it. And sometimes you really have to hit drums hard to to to make the desired sound. And I'm just encouraging people to go for that because you you cannot hurt them.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

So it's a great answer. Cool, thank you. Um, and then the final the next one would be uh how how important is it is the editing part of the drums for you, especially as as a good drummer, where it's not about you know fixing a bad take or whatever. You like you you can play great takes, they feel great, and someone without recording experience would hit play and be like, Yep, that's it, like that's going on the record. But I'm sure you still do some edits sometimes. So, how important is that and what's your what's your whole take on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:43

I I comp together um from different takes when I'm sending stuff out. There's it it goes even as far as when when I'm tracking it, I sort of there's in the back of mind is that snare hit probably will not be good enough. Like it goes as far as that. Um not that I'm very good at multitasking, I just I've I've done it enough so I kind of kind of know how it will look like in the DAW, how the transients will will look like. So I I kind of know where I have to be like editing and what is what I can quote unquote get away with. Um but there's there's comping in everything I do. Um and I think there's nothing wrong with that, and um I think it's a very cool feature to to just get the best parts out of every every take. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

Yeah, that's that's pretty much all we need to know. It's about again serving the song, being intentional, making sure that at the end you have the performance you wanted to have in the first place, and whatever whatever it takes, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:58

And so Yeah, yeah, and and and sometimes sometimes it's it's done in in three takes, and sometimes you have to play 10 or 15 takes until it is good enough, and you have to be honest with yourself, and I'm having that's the thing that I having that that that I have trouble with, like saying okay, that's good enough. I I I I I always wanna make it as good as it as it can be, but you have to uh uh take time into consideration and you you cannot spend like multiple days on one single song. Um so yeah. Um But that is that is just practice in itself. If you if you are recording yourself a lot, you will you will get better and you will develop a feeling of what what is good enough and what is workable and w what can can be even better. So yeah, it's about repetition in the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

Love it. Yeah. And also a skill you had to learn probably. Um yeah. Where like being a good drummer and even being able to record it does not necessarily mean you're fast and efficient and good at editing as well. It's like another skill that a remote drummer needs to have.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:18

Yeah, and and you you will come to a place where you try to edit stuff that that is not that you cannot edit because certain symbols ring out differently, and and you hear it in in the room mics or in the overheads, and that's that's definitely a skill, and it can get pretty frustrating if you if you find out that you have to replay it, and you are already like um on another song and you you change the snare tuning and everything, and then that that can be very frustrating, but it's part of the the thing, and yeah, you have to be ready for that to to to be able to have the playing in check, the engineering, and um the the time, the tone, everything. It's it can get pretty pretty hard at times, but it's it's it's a great challenge, and I'm I'm I'm glad that I I faced it, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Love that. Yeah, very cool. Awesome. Manel, would you want to walk us through what you have prepared uh in terms of the song um that we've collaborated on?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:27

Yeah, so first of all, I guess I should say that the song is out already. It was out on the 2nd of August. So you can go to Spotify or whatever you want to listen to your music and listen to the whole song. But today in this episode, we're gonna listen to you know the same song in different phases, right? So phase one will be like the rough demo that I recorded on my mobile phone with my acoustic guitar and my voice. Uh so I mean the song was already there. Then we're gonna listen to the first demo that I made on Logic with programmed drums, uh, you know, my guitars and yadda yadda yad. And then we're gonna go to the final version of the song with Mihi on the drums and Mr. Benedict Hein uh mixing and mastering the song so that you guys can listen to the whole process and how how you know the drums and Benedict's mix changed the song, and also it was properly recorded, everything. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

So it's your it's a song by you, we should say. Like it's a song written and uh recorded by Manel, except for the drums recorded by by Michi. Uh what's the song called?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:57

It's called Lagrimas de Salle, which basically means tears of salt.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

Yep. And uh your artist name is Manelito. Yeah. Yeah. So that people can find it. All right, perfect. Yeah, that was a fun collaboration for sure. Um, so and uh for people who are not familiar with the process, you basically start by just capturing ideas quickly without technical perfection, right? Just the phone demo getting things done really quickly. Then you uh kind of re-record things for real, like with your real tones and and proper takes and everything. And then in this case, you brought Mickey in to replace your drums with actual drums. And as far like if I remember correctly, from earlier this episode, uh Mickey also contributed creatively to the song a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Yes. If you listen to the whole song, uh there's a I think I would say it's a special moment in the second verse of the song. Uh, we're not gonna listen to this to that in the episode, but you can listen to the whole song and notice. But there's a part where Mihi added a marching band sort of snare. And I didn't tell him about it, he just did it. And the amazing thing is that uh here in my region, you know, the marching band snare thing is a is a thing, you know. Like we use that in our traditional music all the time, and I thought it was a really cool uh detail there, so it stayed on the song.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

Awesome. Yeah, cool. Is is that what you do when when you run around, you know, blowing up things and like with your guns and stuff and the cool gunpowder craziness that's going on in your hometown.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

Yes, and there's marching man's snare in the background, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Yeah, I'm still like that. And then he told me about this tradition that they have, and like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:55

So good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:56

Yeah, cool. So um, all right, so what we're gonna listen to the phone demo first, right? Yeah, okay. So let's listen to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:20

Encontrat us to do that, the kids contremos in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

Yep, so that was the end. That was the end, okay. Great. So now anything you wanna say about that before we go to the next version?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

Well, the only thing that I would say is that when I recorded the demo, a new melody and a new part came came to my mind, and that's what we're gonna hear now. That that same end, but with a different twist. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:09

So now it's fully arranged, but still pre-production program drums, no final vocals or final anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:19

Still a demo. Okay, let's see. Were those Mihi's drums already?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:08

No. No. It was I don't know, whatever. Logic drums or normally when I know that someone is going to record proper drums, I don't put that much effort onto those. Uh anyways, I think Mihi respected that uh fill break.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Yeah, that's why I was asking. That that drum fill sounded like I didn't I didn't hear the I mean I probably heard the demo, but like I thought that drum fill was a Mikhi thing. It sounded like a typical Mickey thing to me, but it was apparently was not.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:41

I actually played less. I I I kept the vibe of of like the the the idea of the pattern, which is a triplet thing, um, but uh I I I shortened the fill. Um yeah, but you're gonna gonna hear that in a in a second, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:58

Yeah. And so with the final version, uh I think what happened here is that given that Mr. Miki and Mr. Benedict are you know good musicians, they totally hundred percent saw that that moment had to be the biggest thing in the song. So they played uh their parts to make that piece amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

All right, let's see. Here comes the final version of that part. Yeah, the biggest thing about this part is your voice though, still, Manil, I have to say. I have to agree. But yeah, it's I think you know, when when different people come together to bring their own things to the table, cool things happen, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:37

And yeah. Uh I think it made a big difference that you both were part of the song. Um also I have to mention that I recorded the final vocal takes in a studio, which is not my studio, because I don't particularly like recording vocals myself alone. You know, I want to forget about the technical aspects and be you know, free to sing and be inside the song and all that. So uh Jonathan Pons, who was the guy in the studio that that in that moment also played a part because he was also giving his opinion. So for me, like this is to say that this was this was uh great uh experience and an amazing team effort, and that we did this for my song, but that we also do this for other people. So if someone is listening to us and uh would love to work with us to like bring their songs or their artistic vision to a I would say extended place, uh they can contact us and that would be an amazing thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:03

Absolutely, yeah, agreed. Um and it's also the the different strengths playing together, right? Where you know, writing, producing, engineering mixing, recording drums, playing drums. Yeah. And to this day, by the way, this is how most of the really you know records that that m many people love are still being made. Like it's not a thing of the past, it's still the thing where you know we're so used to the one-man show, one or one woman show where one person's doing everything. Um, but there's still teams of people coming together in studios all the time. Um, and there's a good reason for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:37

Yeah. Yeah, and one interesting thing is that the more you know, the more you know at what parts are you're not as good, right? So you know when to bring new people or other people to your uh process, right? Uh because like This is not to brag, but I know that I could do everything by myself, and I would be would be the most Manel song ever, because it would be Manel everywhere. But I would be really boring and I would end up probably like burning out quickly. Um, and so I think it's very positive to bring other people to the equation and have fun and also amazing people, amazing people that I would love to um go out and have some beers. Yeah. Even though we did we did this like uh remotely, remotely, yeah. Um and also on the other hand, this is the result of me being part of the self-recording syndicate at some point you know, months ago. That that is why I met Miki, that is why I met Benedict, and that is why I got to the point where I know uh where people can help me bring my song to a new place. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:12

Thank you, Manel. I love that. Oh, that's great. Yeah, uh period. Yeah, uh it was so much fun to be part of that um project and that whole process.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

I have to say that too. Very glad to be part of your song, Manelle. An honor it was, and um such a great song, and I'm really, really happy with the tones we got on this, and um the the the snare tone in particular is is uh is is a cool move, I think, because when you listen to the rest of the song, it's more of a like a six-eighth uh I don't want to say ballad, don't get that wrong, but but it's um it's cool that the the snare sound is not that down tuned ballad snare, it's it's more of a high-pitched, um snappy thing. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:04

That is great because I had that in my list of questions for you. So why did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:13

The main reason was the the big outro chorus um where your voice goes up a couple of notches, and um I I really based the whole snare sound decision on that spot because I didn't think it would make sense to have two different snare sounds and have it change in the middle of that part. I thought that would sound really off, and um so I said, okay, it's gonna be once I wanna pitch you one snare sound for the whole track, and then I thought it could be a cool move to go high and really uh attacky um on the snare sound, and it ended up working. So um uh and I'm glad you you like that because it would totally be cool for me to do different snare sounds, like two different snare sounds, uh uh a low-tuned one until that part comes in and then switch to the higher one. But I think how it is now um makes the song come together, and uh yeah, so I I I really take time for the snare sound because it because I think it's very, very, very important. And um yeah, and I think I did like a take with a low-tune snare, but I just uh didn't didn't want to pitch you that great.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:37

Yeah, I love when like I think recently I I love making bold decisions, and I think that's a bold decision. Uh so I like when we make a creative decision and just go for it no matter what, and that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:55

Yeah, I think for like maybe some people that's that's the quote unquote wrong decision to to go with a high snare on that track, but that's fine too, because if if if you're not making people feel anything, that's that's also not good. So um yeah, I like bold bold decisions too, and I will forever defend the Saint Angus snare, yeah, because people missed that they're actually like most people missed that there are actually multiple layers of of the snare drum, one with uh the the snare wires on and one with the snare wires off. And I've until this point I've never heard a production like that. And there's certain fills where just one of the the the two layers is on and then it comes back, like the the both uh both of them on the backbeat, so it's very creative. And there is like a version with a modern snare that somebody did, like somebody just sampled like uh a modern snare, and it kind of sounds boring to me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:58

Yeah, period.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:59

I agree, fully agree. Very cool. Awesome. Um, yeah. If you want to check out the entire song, we'll put the link in the show notes and you can listen to the whole thing. Um, there's a lot more in it than just this like loud, pretty, you know, emotional, big outro. Uh a lot of nuance in there, so you can listen to that. And of course, Manel's other songs. You'll be surprised also by the variety, like the different things that Manel is doing. So yeah, uh really cool. I think people should check it out. Um Manel, anything else before we get to the rapid fire round and then wrap it up? Yeah, there's one last thing that I want to unveil.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:36

Oh. Which is that uh there's no editing in that song. In the drums. I mean, the drums are not edited.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:46

I mean, maybe they are by Miki.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

Uh as I said, I I I I I I'm sure I've comped together some stuff. I have to take a look at the session, but there's I didn't really like move stuff, to be honest. I just uh yeah. I can't really remember, but but I'm not if I can replay it, I I will always choose replaying stuff or comping stuff before I sit down and move transients around. Um yeah, I'm gonna take advantage of of me being a drummer first, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:24

Cool. So you and you didn't touch those tracks basically, Manil. No, because I just felt it felt good, so why?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:33

Wow. Yeah, so Michi was the grid, actually. You know, no grid. So you played to the drum. I'm sure. I'm 100% sure I did not do anything interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:47

Okay, I'm gonna take a look at the session later on and just see what I did there.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:51

Yeah, and then listen to the final again and then hearing all the mistakes. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:56

That one's too early. That's rushing, that's dragging.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:59

Yeah. Okay. No, but it felt great. I had no idea either. I I when it came to us, it was perfectly mixed-ready tracks, and there was no complaints.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:07

So yeah, but the thing is that you know, one thing that I like to say is that the grid doesn't make any sound, you know. So grid is only a guide and also the metronome, but the metronome is not gonna sound during the song. So if it's rushed or not, it depends on the relation with the other instruments. Because like the tempo can slightly change, so it's not rushed, it's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:36

I mean perfect for the song or good for the song. So yeah, yeah. If you listen to Smells Like Teen Spirit, like the the the ones on the on the choruses are always late. Yep. So a video of that, like the actual transients. Yeah. Perfect for the comparing that obviously not.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

Yeah, but you you could say that the guitars were early instead of that being late.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:03

Yeah, in relation to what is the question, yeah. And but I agree on that. That the grid doesn't make a sound, and there's also no sequence-based instruments like a synthesizer in that song, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:19

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:20

Yeah, that that makes it much easier for drums to be not gridded. Yep. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:28

Yeah. Cool. Having a good drummer helps too, because it's still pretty much on the grid. Yeah. Yeah, the whole Smash Light Teen Spirit thing. I mean, that is a conversation for a whole other day. Like, there's so many interesting drum things in there. Also, like the you know, uh people don't talk about that that often, but if you listen to it, the kick and the choruses is like five dbs louder compared to the verses and things like that, you know, the automation moves and so many cool things in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:52

So good. The whole the whole nevermind is uh is a perfect, perfect record.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:57

Yeah, yeah. Cool. So, Michi, we're gonna do a quick um rapid fire round, which means no time to think about the answers, just go quickly and see what comes out of you. All right, all right, all right. Um, favorite kick and snare drum heads.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

Power stroke three coated on the kick drum and uh controlled sound X on the snare drum by remote drum heads and nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:27

That was quick. Awesome. Coated on the kick is surprising to me. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:31

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:32

Yeah, yeah. Great. Um favorite drum sound on a record.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:37

Foo fighters wasting light. Taylor Hawkins tape that's all you need. Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:45

Uh most influential drummer to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:49

Ooh. I'm gonna go with Mr. Barker, Travis Barker. But for so much more than drumming. I mean for for making drumming for making me go practice as much as I did. Um also as a drum writer, great parts, his sound, and he's just he he's just himself and he doesn't apologize for it, and that's that's what I uh admire. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:18

Love it. Great. Um as a drum this is a two-part question, so let's go first. Um as a drummer, festivals or club shows? If that gets you into trouble, you can say both. No, I'm gonna say festivals. Okay. And as a um is someone going to shows as a fan, festivals or club shows? Club shows. Interesting. Yeah. Uh so the next one, I don't know if the answer is none, but we'll we'll see if it matters at all. But like favorite shoes for drumming.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:53

Um I could say it does not matter, but playing in like Doc Martin's boots uh would be a cool thing to do, but is so much harder for me than playing in in in in like running shoes. So I'm gonna go with just any type of a running shoe is cool, or any type of vans.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:12

Cool. Interesting. It doesn't even matter that much.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:15

Yeah, it's um have different I think it's it's it's it's a technique thing and not a shoe thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:22

Yes, some drummers are very you know specific though, with their like they can they only had can have like flat advanced jucks type of shoes, or some play without shoes, some say you know, like I've heard different answers. Some say it doesn't matter at all, so that's why I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:35

Always depends on the context if you're doing death death metal, and I guess I I've never done that, so no experience on that, on that end, and on yeah, just shoes that make you feel comfortable and that you could run in as well. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:52

Cool, cool. And then of course, the most important question burger or pizza?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:00

Pizza, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:03

Damn it. Alright. That's like a let me count together. I think it's a one, two, three, four, five, I think it's a six or seven to zero for pizza right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

Yeah, I I I have a question with regards to the last question. Yeah. When you decide whether to choose burger or s or pizza, do you think how do you think about it? Do you think about the best pizza you can imagine and the best burger you can imagine, or maybe something somewhere in in the middle, or like how do you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:44

I thought about how does the concept of each thing make me feel? Like and also what is part of the truth is that I had pizza last night. Yeah. Because I uh came home from from playing festivals on the weekend and kind of always go to one pizza spot. Um, and uh that's like part of my routine, so that's what triggered saying pizza, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:10

Yeah, get it, I get it. Yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:13

I've been thinking about it. I'm also not a big burger guy. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:18

I've been thinking about it for weeks and I still don't know. What weeks that question has been occupying Manel's mind. Yeah, I'm I'm serious. Like I think about it consistently.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:31

But but pizza makes you makes you feel a certain way. I mean playing a show after having a pizza is a hard thing to do. It's just very satisfying. It's a good after show food when you just plan on going to bed immediately. Um but any other time in the day, um I I would go for a burger, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:53

Yep. All right, interesting. Interesting. We'll see if everyone ever says it differently. Um it's funny. On my I did this a while ago on my other podcast, uh, asking a couple people, and it was pretty even all the time. And then at some point, people just kept saying pizza and no one ever said burger again. I don't know why. It's kept like it was changing at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:13

I mean why why because burgers are so popular nowadays that um I mean pizza has always been popular, right? But I think that burgers right now are having this boom of like Do they? At least in Spain, maybe, maybe not, maybe it's only in Spain, but it's full of food trucks with burgers now.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:35

I now live above the best smash burger in Munich. Oh tried it twice, not a fan. Not a fan. Okay, but it's you can you can get a halloumi burger, like a cheese type of thing, and um you can get a chicken burger, and I don't I don't really like I don't like beef. I'm not eating like any red meats.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:58

So um okay, then that makes the whole burger thing a little harder. Although there are really good vegetarian vegan burgers as well, of course. I've been you know doing that for years too. So yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know. I I like I like both. Maybe you should go pizza or pasta, keep it, keep it Italian. Oh, that would be another interesting. Oh, yeah, we should at some point do that. I still I want to wait until someone says until I'm I think I'm gonna wait until someone says burger. We'll see, and then maybe we switch. Give him something. Yeah. Like an award. Yeah, yeah. No, it's just I found I think the qu the idea for the question came that I was interested in hearing why pizza is in general such a popular musician and and after show and studio, whatever food. Like when I was in the studio with people and I asked like what everybody wants to eat, like pizza is always kind of top of the list. Sometimes burgers do, but pizza is always everybody loves pizza. And although everybody can get pizza all the time, like it's nothing special, they still default to pizza, you know, even in a in a in a new location or whatever where you could try something else. Pizza is kind of the default thing, everybody says. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:00

So I don't know. Maybe maybe it's mostly pop punk bands now. Yeah. They're just eating pizza and drinking beers all day. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:10

Yeah, we'll have to figure that out. What is it what that's like. Okay, cool. So thank you, Mikie, so much for taking the time being on our show today, being our guest today. Where should we send people um for all the different things that you do? Like if someone wants to work with you as a session drummer, if someone wants to uh hire you to play live with them, or uh wants a drum teacher, or all the things we mentioned, like how can they contact you? What are some important links we need to put in the show notes? Um, and anything else you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:40

Um, first of all, thank you guys for having me on here. I've been a listener for years and I've uh drawn a lot of uh information and learned a lot um just by listening and was very entertained for years before we even uh um worked together. So um it was a great thing for me to be on here. Very special. Um and yeah, people just go to my Instagram, it's at Michi Dreilich, and there you get an impression of um of my playing, and um you just go uh and DM me over there, and we'll make something work. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:19

Perfect, love that. Is the container drums thing still a thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:22

It is still a thing, yeah, yeah. It is uh still a thing. I I called my studio container drums because it is in a shipping container, which is probably part of the whole overthinking stuff. So, how can drums sound good in a shipping container? But it is possible, believe me, people. Um, listen for yourself. Um, everything you hear on my Instagram that comes out of my studio is without samples. Um, I'm getting that question a lot. So, is this with or without samples? It's there are no samples. Very cool. Because I'm too lazy to do that. And I'm just and I just want to give people a raw impression of the tones. Yeah. Awesome. Um, yeah, that's it. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:04

Check out Miki's Instagram. I'm gonna put it in the show notes below, and then you can figure something out. Great keeping it simple. Get in touch directly with him, and then you can talk about um ways to collaborate. Love it. Yes, really cool. Any news, any upcoming tours you're part of, or other exciting things you want to share?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:22

Um, I'm playing festivals with Los Boilino right now. We have about seven or eight more to go. Um, and um actually that's it for the year on the live side. So I have a lot of time for recording stuff. I'm getting ready to do a pop punk EP in starting next week. Six songs of uh pop punk drums. Really, really looking forward to that. And yeah, but um I I always love to play, so don't hesitate, people, to uh just just contact me and um yeah, as I said, we'll make something work, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:00

Great stuff, awesome. So, yeah, then thank you, Manel, uh, also for being here as always, and thank you for listening and watching. If you are discovering this on YouTube, know that there's a podcast version in all the podcast apps. And if you are discovering it there, you can also watch us if you prefer to do that and go over to YouTube and see the video version there. So thank you for listening. Thank you for being here, guys, and uh we'll see you next week. Bye bye. Goodbye.