215: "Everyone on your team should care as much as you" - Carl Bahner on finding the right collaborators and building your brand as a producer

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Episode show notes:

"Your song is your baby - and everyone on your team should care as much as you." - Carl Bahner.

Carl is an emotion-focused mix engineer with a hands-on approach, who helps artists and producers from all over the world to build their own sonic dream team.

He has an open-minded, collaborative approach with artists and producers, exploring the jungle of sounds to make each song as unique, memorable, and emotionally impactful as possible.

Carl also calls himself a co-producer. Because even though most people come to him for mixing, one of his biggest strengths is helping artists and producers with that final 3% of the production that keeps you banging your head against the wall.

And finally, Carl helps passionate studio pros become irresistible to their ideal clients by teaching them to communicate their unique passions and perspectives.

Why does he do that? Because he loves being part of magical teams who create magical art. And through helping other producers find their perfect artist and make them happy, Carl can have an even greater impact and change even more lives through the music that's being created.

And why is it all about communicating? Because when you clearly communicate what makes you, YOU - aligned with exactly what your ideal clients crave - your inbox fills with serious inquiries.

That’s why Carl uses his two decades of music industry experience to help producers, engineers, and session musicians find and attract the perfect artists to work with.

And he really cares. It comes through in everything he says.

Here comes Carl Bahner, on The Self-Recording Band Podcast. Let's dive in!

PS: Please join the conversation by leaving a comment on YouTube, a rating and review on your podcast app, or a post inside our free Facebook community.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

So the genre niche is what I think most people think of when they talk about your niche, and that would be oh, I work on heavy metal music, or I work on hip hop and rap, or I work on pop, whatever that is figuring out and understanding all of the kind of underlying characteristics that are in the music that you're drawn to that are not necessarily specific to a genre. It's not necessarily about what the genre description is and how, like spotify, categorizes it right, and it's more about what are the characteristics in the music that draw me into it. I love that.

Speaker 2: 0:46

This is the Self-Recording Band Podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own wherever you are DIY style, let's go. Hello and welcome to the Self-Recording Band Podcast. I am your host, benedikt Hain. If you are new to the show, welcome, so stoked to have you. If you're already a listener, welcome back. Always glad to have you as well. Of course, this show is available on your favorite podcast platform like Spotify, apple Podcasts, wherever you enjoy your podcasts, and it's also available on YouTube, if you weren't aware. So if you prefer the video version, you can just go to our YouTube channel and enjoy the conversation there and look at our nice, beautiful faces, especially the one of our guest.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Today it's not just Malcolm and I. That I can already say, and this leads me to what this episode is about. This is another interview episode and I'm always very excited about those. So today we are talking to Carl Bonner. So Carl is a mix engineer co-producer, which I find very interesting, and I totally understand what he means. We'll get to that Mixing engineer, co-producer and self-proclaimed earworm wrangler, which I love that term. That's on his website there. I love that, and we connected through like mutual friends or people we met, and like people Carl works with and that I met in Los Angeles and it was just a perfect match and I had to bring him on to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 2:11

So what stood out to me about Carl is how he has a way of communicating what he does and how he works with artists. That, I think, really resonates with artists, and it's crystal clear if you go to his website that he really cares about the music and about the people he's working with, and that it's much more than just a commodity that he's selling or like a service provider that does a cookie cutter thing. It's much more than that. He really cares and it's crystal clear when you read the copy on his website and when you talk to him more than anything. And so I want to talk more about this today.

Speaker 2: 2:40

I want to talk about the relationship between producers, mix engineers and artists. I want to talk about, from the artist's perspective, how to find the right person to work with and, from the producer's perspective, how to attract your ideal artist that you want to work with and how that all works and the magic that can happen when the right people come together, and I think Carl is an expert in all of that and also in branding, he helps producers build their brands and their studio careers and yeah, all of that. And also in branding, he helps producers build their brands and their studio careers and yeah, all of that. I'm super excited. Welcome, carl Bonner, to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this and, as always, I'm not doing this alone. I'm here with my co-host and buddy, malcolm Owen Flood, as well, so I hope both of you are doing well and again, welcome, carl.

Speaker 3: 3:23

Yeah, welcome, carl. Thanks for coming on, man, it's going to be awesome.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Holy cow, that was the best intro anyone's ever given for me, and I think I'm just going to take that clip and just put that on my website as like the first thing that somebody sees Cause, yeah, thank you. Thank you, um.

Speaker 2: 3:39

I am pretty smooth.

Speaker 1: 3:40

Yeah, I am genuinely blushing right now. Now, no, yeah, thank you so much for having me on and, yeah, when we met a few weeks ago through a mutual friend of ours, my manager, dave Rozica, he warned us that we were going to get along so well and we'd have so much to talk about. And he was not wrong. I feel like we hit it off immediately, benedict, and I am really thankful that you wanted me to come on here and share my ramblings with your audience and hopefully help everybody to get a better understanding of how to approach this weird industry in a way that helps bring more money to you and also more fulfillment to you awesome.

Speaker 2: 4:23

Yeah, love, I love this. So I agree, I totally recall like this was a match right from the beginning and and david was totally right in connecting us. So, yeah, maybe quick, like I don't want to do the full, you know, biography thing that is always kind of kind of boring but like, maybe just a quick backstory. So you started out as, I guess, a producer, then turned to like a mixing engineer and then into helping other producers build their brands and studios. Right, is that about the journey?

Speaker 1: 4:52

I actually started out as a session drummer and touring drummer.

Speaker 1: 4:55

So, I've been making music professionally for 19 years and full-time for 15. And in the beginning I was a session drummer and gigging drummer, teaching lessons to being a sonic mercenary behind the drum set in the Philadelphia area. That's where I was living at the time and I started making the transition into more production and mixing right around 2015, 2016. It wasn't necessarily a choice that I wanted to shift careers, it was just that I was having fun noodling around. I think it's as simple as that sounds. That's really what it was. I had some experience doing some recording and engineering, but it was mostly just recording my own bands or my friends and it was very casual. But it was always secondary to what I saw as my main you know career trajectory, which was as a drummer, and I was in a band that had a label and management and you know all that stuff. For a while and when we would be out touring, there would be a lot of boring downtime, especially driving through the states and like touring through the midwest and you know it's a 10-hour drive day of nothing but you know mom and pop, gas stations and mcdonald's. And I started doing remixes for some friends bands because I was just bored. Right, it was just it was something. I had a laptop and abundance of time in the back of the van and I just got very lucky that the friends bands that I was doing these remixes for were bands like Hippocampus and the Wombats and St Lucia and these really, really fantastic artists bats and st lucia and these really, really fantastic artists and through doing that I started to get a bit of the bug for production and taking it more seriously, rather than it just being kind of an extension of me being a drummer and just, you know, recording rehearsals. This became something that I actually wanted to, to be a little bit more involved in. That turned into, you know, starting to make a bit of a name for myself in that world and then getting other bands asking me to reach out or asking me to remix them and then other artists asking me to produce them.

Speaker 1: 7:16

And, next thing, I knew I was producing and mixing more than I was playing drums and I took it as a bit of a sign and kept going and started making it into more of an intentional transition and my whole career has kind of continued in that sort of a path where I find something that I love and I really enjoy doing and I enjoy the people that I do it with. And then when something new presents itself in a way that scratches all of those same itches but maybe scratches a few more as well, then I get pulled toward that. So for me it was being a drummer playing with a bunch of different bands all over the area, you know, gigging 15 to 20 times a month, then getting pulled towards doing production and mixing, especially doing stuff remotely, because I could work with a bunch of different artists. You know a lot of different artists every month, a lot of different styles of music. But I was able to do it in a bit of a bigger scope as a producer and engineer rather than just being the drummer.

Speaker 1: 8:24

And then when I really started to narrow down my focus into primarily doing mixing and additional production, the scope of what I was doing like the I guess the big picture scope, like the, the service scope of what I was doing with each artist, was getting a little bit smaller because I was most mostly focusing on mixing and then, like the last, helping out with the last like 3% of their productions, and it enabled me to go deeper into that, get a lot better at that and also do a higher quantity of projects like that, which enabled me to get better a lot faster, meet more people a lot faster, and that's where I was for the past, for quite a few years, before I started to help other producers and engineers with their branding, which seems kind of unrelated, but it actually ended up being like that next logical step for me. I didn't realize this at the time when I was a drummer, but what really drew me to being a session drummer as opposed to just being in a band was the fact that I really thrived on helping artists to, but by by supporting their creative vision and helping them to achieve that vision and helping that vision to connect with the audience members. Right, I didn't look at it that way at the time. I thought I just like being on stage. I thought I liked you know, carl, smash, bang, go, boom, loud noise, butts, dance. You know what I mean Like that's. That's how I saw it in the moment.

Speaker 1: 9:51

And then, when I started making that transition into into mixing and production again, it was it really was the same thing that drew me in there. I just didn't realize it consciously, it wasn't front of mind. I thought, oh, I get to work with all these different kinds of artists, and I also don't have to sleep on couches.

Speaker 1: 10:06

This is great, but it was that, it was me being able to help more artists in a deeper way connect with their vision and then, instead of it being just connecting with the audience in the room in that moment, as a live drummer, they could connect with those fans and those listeners in perpetuity because the songs are being recorded and put out there in CDs, vinyl, spotify, wherever it goes.

Speaker 1: 10:35

So the reason that helping other producers and engineers with their branding and their client acquisition seemed like the next logical step for me. It was because that enables me to do that next step, going from helping the artists playing drums to help artists connect with people in the moment to mixing and producing to help artists connect with people in perpetuity. Right, this is okay. I can help other producers and engineers get better at finding the right clients for them and the clients that they're more likely to be able to actually help and achieve those visions for those artists. And you can kind of multiply yourself. Yeah, I can multiply. Yeah, it's a way for me to be able to kind of scale the impact you're having the impact yeah, and I like it's.

Speaker 1: 11:32

it's.

Speaker 1: 11:32

It's very different from being a drummer, in the sense that when I was a drummer, like everything was very physical, very tangible, very like in the moment, live response, like the energy is right there.

Speaker 1: 11:38

And this is very much on the other end, where it's more of a butterfly effect. I guess you know it's more of me trying to help inspire and influence the way that these people promote themselves online, the way they have conversations, the way that they're more picky about who they reach out to, who they say yes to, who they say no to. So it is a much, much more of a longer game influence than you know, making booty shake out on the dance floor. But it's it's way more rewarding than I ever would have imagined, because I don't have, like, a business background, like I don't have a degree in business. My degree was in orchestral percussion performance, you know. So this is definitely. It's the same thing, yeah, basically. So this is not something that I had in my 20-year plan by any stretch, but when I kind of take a step back and look at what the desires were that really drew me into doing what I do, it makes all the sense in the world.

Speaker 3: 12:40

What I'm hearing is that it didn't really matter where you were, as long as you were joining a team and then contributing and kind of completing that team, almost yeah, and pushing that team forward. And that makes a ton of sense to me. Everybody does start with the band in our world of like, all right, we're a team, but then you do the assessing gig and you're like, oh, I can be on multiple teams at once and have impact in this room that we're now in shared kind of thing. And then moving on to your coaching and educational aspects of helping the artists or the producers then make something that's going to impact a lot more people forever because they're creating something in perpetuity. As you said, you're just kind of filling in the blank spot where there's a team that needs somebody.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I can be that guy.

Speaker 1: 13:28

That's really awesome and that's that's always been my, my, my biggest driver, and I think I was more conscious of that desire to be a contributing member of a team much sooner than I realized that that connection about, like you know, me being driven by trying to help make those emotional connections, that was more of an undercurrent thing, that was always there and I just wasn't aware of it.

Speaker 1: 13:51

But being part of a team was something that I always did really love and enjoy, because music is a social sport, especially as a drummer when I was first getting into it. I don't know any, any. I've never met a drummer that wanted to learn how to play drum so they can just sit in a practice room by themselves, right, like that is not the the end goal for anybody that wants to play music, right. I'm sure there's going to be like three exceptions in all of mankind, you know, know, but generally that's the thing, and I think always being terrible at sports made me feel better about myself when I could find musical teams that I could actually play a good role in.

Speaker 3: 14:37

Yeah, I think, ultimately, music's trying to communicate pretty much bottom line, right. So, yeah, there's just there's so many ways to do that and I think because obviously we're the self-recording band podcast, so we are dealing with a lot of people that are recording themselves and unfortunately, this is like the easiest area to end up alone in your bedroom with a laptop and not have anybody else working with you. Um, so you lose that communication and until you release, you know there's no communication potentially, and no team as well. So it's interesting. You're just making me think about that. It's like oh, how do we encourage people to not be in a dark, windowless room like I am right now?

Speaker 1: 15:19

Yeah, Well, I know one thing that oh sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 15:23

No, no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead, that's fine.

Speaker 1: 15:26

So I was going to say this actually, the way that I've handled that from the, not from the perspective of how do I get out of that situation, but from the perspective of how do I help others get out of that situation.

Speaker 1: 15:46

When it comes to the services that I provide, like in the, in the studio side, like whether I'm doing like co-production or mixing or mastering or whatever I really don't care as much about what it is that I'm doing on the team. I'm more concerned that I can be helpful to the team and that's I don't know if I'm sure there's like a sports term for that, that I don't know because I was in marching band but that that, I think, is something that I've tried to do and I've tried to figure out. How can I help people that want to get out of that space, you know, out of out of the, the vacuum of creating alone, but also they maybe don't know where to start with with that. So one of the things that I do for a lot of my friends and students that are kind of in that position is that's why I love doing STEM mastering for people and I know that might be a hot topic, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 16:36

I feel like some mastering engineers it kind of is yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:41

But for me, I have a lot of people that come to me because they may not be able to afford my full mix rate, or maybe because they really love having the hands-on in their mix, but they really do want to have somebody to be some last line of defense for quality control of tech issues, or to just having a second set of ears that they trust to be able to give them their two cents.

Speaker 1: 17:07

You know, so for me, like that's been a way that I've been able to help people in that, where it's something that's kind of like low, you know, not a lot of monetary investment for them, but also, I think, like kind of solves a pretty big pain point where they just want to like feel like a peace, sense of peace of mind that they didn't screw up their song. But ultimately it comes down to just having to build trust with them, and that's really the. I think that the big issue with people that don't, or the big issue that causes people to not leave the vacuum of their dark room, is that they don't trust or they don't have people that they could trust with it.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Yet you know, I don't think that I'm not saying people aren't trustworthy. I'm just saying that that connection of the, the communication of understanding, like who am I looking for, who? What are the types of people that I trust with this? What, what kind of, what kind of feedback am I looking for? What kind of, what kind of framing is going to be the most positive and helpful, as how they give me the feedback? And that's something that I think is not really easily taught. You know, learning how to ask for feedback and figuring out who to ask for feedback from is a very difficult skill to teach, but I think the people that really do make it more successfully in this industry. Over the course of their careers, they've found people that they can trust and they found ways to be able to know who to trust, who to listen to, how to ask for it 100%.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Let's actually talk about that connection part, because that's really the most important thing for me here from two perspectives. So, again, we are the Self-Recording Band Podcast, so the bulk of our, the majority of our audience are musicians who record themselves, but many of them want to work with mixers or somebody on their team. Like I love that how you said that it's not necessarily a certain very defined role, it's just someone helping them get their project over the finish line. This could be a mix engineer, a mastering engineer, both Anything in between co-producer, writing help, whatever. Whatever it is that helps them get their project done, because many people, luckily, are very aware of the fact that they can't do everything super well and they need help with certain aspects, and so many of those need help and so they need some collaboration, some partner, someone on their team to help them with that. And then, on the other hand, we have a lot of people in our audience as well who are already pretty accomplished, either accomplished producers or aspiring producers wanting to become producers or mixers for other people and are trying to build their brand and connect with artists and find their first couple of projects to work on and stuff like that. So what I'm interested in is how do two people that are a perfect match and would create the perfect team? How do they find each other?

Speaker 2: 19:51

So what can a producer do to attract the right artists without you know? You can't try and sell everything to everybody, of course, so you need to have branding, you need to have the right avatar that you're talking to, and all of that. It should be in my opinion at least, it should be authentic. Especially in our industry. Nobody wants to talk to business people and salespeople. We want to talk to real humans and people and people who get us and our art and who really care. So how do you do that as a producer and then how as an on the artist side? How do I know if someone is trustworthy and if it's a good fit for me, and who should I reach out to of all the ads that I'm seeing or posts that I'm seeing or whatever? How do we?

Speaker 1: 20:34

create these really great teams that are a perfect match and can create magic together.

Speaker 1: 20:36

What it comes down to, I think and this is actually going off of what I was saying about the people working in a vacuum and how they don't have anybody that they can trust or they don't feel like they have somebody that they can trust that is, I think, the core of what a producer's branding, a producer's website content, whatever it is that should be trying to build trust with the people that are visiting that your website or your, your profile, right, and it's not just getting everybody to trust you.

Speaker 1: 21:05

It's about really understanding your ideal clients. Because there's there's trust could be talked about in a couple of different ways, right, and I don't mean I don't necessarily just mean like trust in the sense that, oh, if I give them money, they're not gonna run away to mexico or something you know. I mean like there's no, there's. There's that kind of version of trust which, yeah, that's important, but yeah hopefully I don't have to kind of assuming we'll have to do that yeah, but it's more so a matter of trusting that they actually understand the needs and the problems of the artist.

Speaker 1: 21:43

And you can't understand the needs and the problems of an artist if you don't know what kind of artists you're trying to help in the first place. And I think a good example that I see a lot with producers and engineers. On their websites, for example, or their social media profiles, they will say we record pop, rock, folk, jazz, podcasts, film scores and everything in between and casting such a wide net, yeah, you'll probably get some clients, but they're probably gonna not be the best clients and they're probably not gonna have a clear understanding of what they actually need. Because the more clear of an understanding the artists have of what their needs are, well, first off, like the probably the better quality of an experience you're going to have as a producer and the closer you're going to be able to get to actually reaching the vision that they have, because they actually have a vision.

Speaker 2: 22:44

But also then it's going to be and they're going to look no, sorry, they're going to look for a specialist who does exactly what they want. Anyways, if the artist knows what they want, then they're not going to look for someone who does it all they're looking for. The question is, can this person give me exactly what I need, and are they like the best at this thing that I need? And I don't care about all the rest. I need that one thing and they need to do that.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Well, right, yeah, exactly Like, if you're in, if you're like I'm trying to think of an example like in the rock and metal world, because there's a lot of like rock and listeners in this, right, yeah, so I'm gonna I hope I'm not pronouncing it wrong but like josh schroeder, is that? Yeah, francis last. Okay, so like, I'm sure josh probably mixed a podcast at some point in his career, but I haven't gone to his website. But I'm assuming you're not going to see podcast services.

Speaker 2: 23:38

Yeah, on there right.

Speaker 1: 23:40

So I think that think that's one of the things is making the artist not just know that you do the thing that they really need you to do from a service standpoint, but really going to get a little like, maybe a little existential here. But my goal for my website and hopefully if anybody that goes to it, carlbonnercom, when you read it, I want my ideal clients to go to that page and I want them to read within the first sentence or two, I want them to feel like I am speaking directly to them. I don't just mean saying hi, you, thanks for coming to my website. I don't mean literally, I mean like I want them to feel like I understand the unique pain points that they have, right, and if, if they don't feel that way, if they feel like I don't understand them, want them to go somewhere else. That's, that's a scary thing for a lot of producers and engineers is like you know, that's why they put we produce rock, folk, jazz, jam bands, podcasts, 8-bit covers, whatever because they don't want to lose clients. And I am all about losing clients because if I could be more direct than the people that do see that and they think, holy crap, this, this guy like he's he knows exactly what I'm going through, he understands what my issues are and it seems like he's a badass at helping to solve them. Well then, like that website, like that, that the website is helping them to convince themselves that I'm the right fit for them.

Speaker 1: 25:25

Yeah, so, yeah, that that's something that I I really say is as far as how to get the producer and the engineer from their perspective, how to like communicate and like find those people.

Speaker 1: 25:35

It's it's making sure that your messaging is super clear about who you're helping and not just saying I help indie pop artists that record at home. It's like, oh, these are the things that I'm really passionate about helping. If you have this issue. You are trying to do this. I want to help you to do this and just feeling okay with polarizing people, not in a political sense of that word, but just you know they're going to have a gut feeling about whether or not you're going to be able to be a really great fit for them, and the sooner that they can get to that gut feeling, the better, because if they feel like you are going to be a good fit, you don't really have to do any convincing. They're convincing themselves and if they don't think you're going to be a good fit, then they're not going to waste their time and they're not going to waste your time, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:25

And you can do also.

Speaker 2: 26:26

You can you can quote unquote sell your, your services or whatever you offer in a very authentic way.

Speaker 2: 26:32

You don't even have to really sell it that hard, because you're only doing the things you are really good at for the right people that you really want to work with, and so you don't have to pretend you can do something for someone that you actually don't want to work with. So selling is way easier and more natural that way, because it's the things you love to do and you're good at anyways with the people that you want to work with anyways, and everybody else can go somewhere else. And then, naturally, you create these relationships, hopefully, that that are good and that are a perfect match. Now, okay, yeah, so I can tell that, like you are, we're very much about doing things you actually care about and then actually, yeah, caring about the artists that you work with and knowing everything about them and knowing what you can bring to the table. What I think is interesting I said in the beginning is the term you used in your headline there, where it's mix engineer and co-producer I guess, that's totally relatable for me to me as well.

Speaker 2: 27:21

Like I'm malcolm and I, we mix as well, and I always consider myself like a co-producer in a way, because I not only I don't limit what I do to just mixing. I help people get the their like, improve their recordings before they even send it over to me. I help them with their arrangement. Whatever the project needs, I help them get all the things done and right that they need to do before it's even ready to be mixed. And many people would say that's outside the scope of the project or whatever. I just make it part of what I offer and part of my agreement with artists and it's just that way I just get way better results and I feel like the artist doesn't really need a certain, a very specific kind of service. They need someone that can help them complete their project, whatever that takes. And if I can be that person, then I'm happy to do that, and if I can't do it myself, I'm happy to build a team to do it. So I'll be like, yeah, I can mix this, but maybe we should get so-and-so on board to help you with these arrangements first, or maybe we need a session drummer or whatever no-transcript, you end up with a mix that it's maybe sonically good, but the overall, the final product that you have, is still not going to be good. So you're better off finding someone like Carl, like people who understand it the way we do, where we say like we are helping you get this done at a high level, whatever it takes, and if that means we need to build a team, we'll do that and we'll just guide you in a way and and coach you in a way. So that was my long kind of summary of how I understand this headline. But I love that and it's it's a very cool thing, I think, for for musicians to understand too.

Speaker 2: 29:13

And so my question after all of this to you, carl, is, first of all, I hope I did get I got that right and it's the way you see it. And the second one is if, if I'm an artist and of course I don't know what I don't know, so I think my tracks are great I I'm looking for a mix engineer, like how do I find, like yeah, again, like the whole trust thing, or or who do I need? Or to show me, who do I need to find, like a person that can show me, like what is actually wrong with my recordings? Or like who can I trust with giving me good feedback and who can I trust with telling me that maybe I don't only need what I think I need, but I need this in addition to that? Or whatever.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Like how do I, you know, what do I do about these blind spots? And because you know, yeah, that's the's the question like how do I hire the right people and how do I figure that out? Do I go to the websites, read the copy? Do I follow them on social media for a while? Do I reach out? Do I jump on a call with them? Like what's the best way to figure out if someone is honestly trying to help me with my project and offering me what I really need, because I might not know what I need all of the above I think.

Speaker 1: 30:16

I mean, I don't know, I don't know if it did all of them, but I think maybe any of the above. I do think it does come down to ultimately communication and having a conversation with somebody. It's more a matter of do you have a gut feeling about X, y or Z that you think that they could be a good person, you think that they might understand what you're trying to go for? And then just honestly just asking them if they're a mixing engineer, but you think that you might need something more than just mixing, asking them to say, hey, you know, we I love your mixes. I you know if you like this music and we'd love to talk about having you on the team.

Speaker 1: 30:57

I feel like there might be some things missing, but I know you work on a lot more music. That's literally what you do all day, every day. So I don't know if you're willing to give other feedback on the song or not, or things that you think might help to improve it, to make it even better before it would get to your hands. That would be really super appreciated and then you can really just judge by their response to that whether or not they're going to be a good fit for it, because if they are like, if they say no, then well then yeah, that answers your question. If they I, I, yeah, I mean like I. It's weird to say just like, just figure out if they're a human or not. That's such a weird like non-answer. But I think ultimately that really comes. So much of what we're talking about today comes down to just like being a person, being like communicating, like a real human and asking questions.

Speaker 1: 31:57

And if they respond really awkwardly about it, if they're like, oh, you know, no, but we could set up, you know, a paid session to do mixed critiques or something you can then ask yourself, okay, well, is this person mixing 10 Billboard number ones a year and this is worth me spending some money? Or is this just some dude with a YouTube channel that you know what I mean? Like that's the real question you have to ask yourself. And do you, you know, watching the kind of content that they're making? Reading the website? Probably more so the content, I would guess, just because most people, most engineers' websites are terrible. But if their content, if, like the vibe from that, seems like they want to be genuinely helpful, then most likely they are, because it's really it's hard to pretend to care and it's exhausting to pretend to care.

Speaker 1: 32:49

It's exhausting to pretend to care, you know yeah you don't do it for long.

Speaker 2: 32:56

You can fake it for a while maybe, but even then you can tell and then you definitely won't do it for long. It's not sustainable. And so the people who've been doing it for a while and really seem to care they usually do care. That's a good point. What are some like red flags or like no-goes from the producer perspective and maybe red flags from the client's perspective when it comes to you know, creating content, putting things on your website.

Speaker 2: 33:17

What are some things you see that you would say to, where you would say to your producer clients it would say, like probably don't do that when you post, or you don't, maybe don't put that that way on your website. And from the other perspective, what are like? Those are probably like red flags or things that or you don't, maybe don't put that that way on your website. And from the other perspective, what are like? Those are probably like red flags or things that you don't want to see on a producer's profile, like maybe there's some things or stories you can share without calling people out, but like you know, I'll say this I don't know about red flags necessarily.

Speaker 1: 33:45

I'm sure some will come up as I'm talking about this, but I know what I'll tell my producer students like my engineer students is I will tell them to just make sure that whatever content you're making actually matters to the people you're trying to get the attention of, right. It's so easy I use this example all the time it's so easy for me to make a mix tutorial about something that I did. If I'm trying to teach mixing lessons or production lessons, perfect, because that's my intended audience, that's my goal and the content that I'd be making there, that's what those students are looking for. It's what they need.

Speaker 1: 34:27

If I'm making mix tutorials with the goal of trying to attract artist clients to hire me, that's not the most effective way to do that because, like I don't know, a lot of producers and engineers will say that they're doing that to try to like, show that they know what they're talking about and show you know their authority or whatever.

Speaker 1: 34:44

But, like, your actual mixes will tell people like whether or not you know what you're doing, but no one's going to check your mixes. No one's going to actually go to your website and even listen to it unless you can make them feel compelled to go to your website and listen to it, because those artists and whoever it is they don't owe you anything, they don't have to go to your website. If they go to your website, they don't have to click listen, they don't have to read it. The Goodyear website they don't have to click listen, they don't have to read it. So what you should be doing is focusing on making your ideal clients feel compelled to want to go there and want to learn more, and then, once they're there, they get sucked in because you're speaking directly to all of their pain points.

Speaker 2: 35:23

This is true for all kinds of content. This is also true for artists. This is like you don't want to make content for yourself or for people like you, necessarily, unless you are your ideal client or your avatar, basically. But usually people make the mistake of creating the content that they would want to see, instead of creating the content that is for their ideal audience bands, bands, where they only make content or stuff that is interesting to other bands or to people like them, but not necessarily to the people they would want to listen, that they would love to have in their audience. And so even if artists like create content online, it's sometimes you have, yeah, it feels like they're making what they would want to see, but not necessarily what their audience would like to see.

Speaker 1: 36:02

And then for producers it's the same thing yeah yeah, absolutely agree so, red flags though, I'm still trying to think if there are any.

Speaker 3: 36:10

Well, I, do feel like when you mentioned having 18 different genres and services on your website, that's like a red flag from a client's point of view as well, because if I was an artist wanting to hire a producer to go into the studio with them and make my hard rock album and they had a polka credit that they were pumping out on their website, I wouldn't have a lot of faith that they're going to actually be able to deliver on the metal, even though metal's also listed on their website. It's like well, are you?

Speaker 2: 36:38

a polka engineer, or are you a metal engineer?

Speaker 3: 36:40

yeah, you know, I I think that is definitely a red flag.

Speaker 2: 36:44

Yeah, point to note to me, a red flag in any way is like, honestly, are this is not only true for producers to me, a red flag that immediately comes to mind are like complainers or like people who just are negative in general. Like that's the thing. If I see someone, even if they're good at what they're doing, if I see people who constantly post like people don't care about music anymore, or like musicians can't play their instruments anymore and this or that is bad and the industry is terrible and this or that is a ripoff and whatever right. These types of people, even though some of those things might be true, you're not. I don't think you're helping yourself or your band or your producer business or whatever you have.

Speaker 2: 37:17

I don't think it helps to be that kind of person, even though some of those things might be true and you can have discussions about this, but I always I don't think these are people you would want to work with. Like I personally avoid negative people and people who complain all the time, and I'm more drawn to people who find problems, who find solutions, who are. They see the problems but they find solutions for it. They see challenges rather than things to complain about, and those are the people I want to surround myself with and work with and those constant complainers and there are some in our industry that are really good but still all the time complaining and negative I don't know that those are not the people I want on my team usually.

Speaker 1: 39:39

So maybe that's a thing, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think back to your point about being the red flag, like a producer red flag from the perspective of an artist, and when you were saying how they have you know, too broad of a scope, listen, or no scope, all they don't say what they do, they just say they're a producer, which is basically an even more broad way of saying that. It's kind of like if you were a first-time guitar. I hope I don't offend anybody in this group. Okay, so let's say you're a kid and you're going to learn guitar for the first time in third grade. Parents might get you a guitar at Walmart, right, because Walmart sells a whole lot of stuff and you can get a guitar for cheap. It's probably not going to last you very long.

Speaker 1: 40:24

And then when somebody buys their first, like you know real guitar, like you know an intermediate, you know like a Squire or something, then yeah, maybe they'll go to like guitar center or somewhere like that that has they're a little bit more focused, they're more focused on musical instruments but they have kind of a wide variety of them. But then when you have like the real serious players, the real serious, you know players or collectors of guitars. They probably have like a real serious guitar shop that they go to. That all they really focus on is just, you know, guitars and they've got stuff that's very boutique, very specialized. People that work there have a very deep understanding of the things that go, you know, go on behind the scenes for like making these guitars, for like repairing these guitars, and there's no objective right or wrong about which kind of guitar player you're trying to sell guitars to, right, but you need to understand what kind of guitar players are going to go to those different kinds of stores to get it right. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1: 41:30

Yeah, Absolutely so for example, I run ads for myself as an educator and for some of the branding stuff and the client acquisition stuff that I help my producers and engineers students with, but I do not run ads for myself as a mixing engineer, and the reason is because the kind of clients that I want to work with would never in a million years hire a mix engineer they found through an ad, you know, like total beginners who are just like they don't really know anything about mixing.

Speaker 1: 42:04

They don't know what a good mixer is versus a not I don't want to say bad mixer, but like they don't have any kind of. They don't have a refined palette for being able to sense whether or not someone is good at what they do. And when they heard the term mix engineer before and that you need that for your song, and then they see your ad come across, sweet, you're answering their prayers and you're going to be the perfect fit for them. However, if it's their first time ever recording a song, the song's probably not that good. The quality is probably not that good. The budget is definitely not going to be that good. And will you find clients? Yeah, you'll find a lot of clients, but they're all going to be Walmart guitar buying. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: 42:48

Go back to that metaphor, I know exactly what you mean. The type of artist you want, the established artists, I don't. They would never hire someone based off an ad. They have a network, they have recommendations, they know people, they, you know they. They find their, their partners in different ways, definitely not through an ad.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Yeah, yeah. So that's something I say just be, and because no matter? Because the thing is like, no matter what you do, whether you're actively trying to brand yourself or not, whether or not you're actively trying to present yourself in a certain way, people are always going to have a first impression of you, no matter what you do, Right?

Speaker 3: 43:28

So at least try to put the effort into making sure that that first impression is the one that you want them to have. I'm going to derail this a little bit just because you mentioned guitars and I have a question from your bio. Okay, you got a song on guitar hero, is that correct?

Speaker 1: 43:37

yes, guitar hero live. Yeah, my own band cheerleader. We had a song on that and it was very surreal because I played guitar hero and like rock band a lot when I was in college I I think it was when that first came out and when I knew we got the placement in that Guitar Hero game. I was probably like mid-late 20s already and I'm already like it was probably already like two or three generations of video game consoles behind. But I had a student that had it and I remember the one day he told me he had that game and we did our lesson and after the lesson I went back over to like the family's game room and I was playing against, you know, an eight year old student and he just destroyed me at you know the the my own, my own band song and I was I was so okay with that but it was, it was super surreal.

Speaker 3: 44:30

Yeah, that's awesome, that's great. Yeah, what a dream.

Speaker 2: 44:33

Yeah hey, I. Is there any any follow-up question on that? Malcolm, I just realized we have a question in the chat from manel and I want to get to that no, no, I just that's just like a dream kind of situation for me.

Speaker 2: 44:44

Yeah, it definitely is I didn't even know that and I love that fact, like that's. That's just. That's really funny, yeah. So Manel is asking a really good question there. Manel is from Spain. He's in our coaching program in the Self-Recording Syndicate and we have an add-on there for the people who are actually interested in not only learning how to record themselves but working with others, building their studio business, doing the studio thing as either a side hustle or their main gig.

Speaker 2: 45:10

And Manel is an awesome engineer from Spain, I have to say, super talented musician, super talented producer and engineer. He delivered some mixes lately, some productions that have blown me away. So shout out to Manel this is awesome what you're doing, you're killing it. And his question is so, carl, because he's just in the process of creating his first website and getting the word out. He only worked on his own projects and a couple of friends and smaller projects so far, but I think he's really ready to work with more people and the word leads to hear what he has to bring to the table. So he says so, carl, what would you suggest we do when we don't know what music genres we want to work on?

Speaker 2: 45:44

That's the question. So, because earlier we said we should focus on certain genres and target. Certain know speak to certain artists, and I guess Manel is one of those talented people who can do a lot of genres really well, like surprisingly well, I have to say and so I can understand that question. So how do we find our niche, how do we find the thing that we really want to do and the artists we want to work with?

Speaker 1: 46:05

I love this question. Okay, so I want to talk about the difference between your genre niche and your style niche. Okay so the genre niche is what I think most people think of when they talk about your niche, and that would be oh, I work on heavy metal music, or I work on hip hop and rap, or I work on pop, whatever that is. But I have met many, many, many more people that say that they work on lots of styles of music and they listen to all sorts of music Way more people that do that than people that only work in an actual specific genre. So what I like to use is what I call the style niche, and the style niche is figuring out and understanding all of the kind of underlying characteristics that are in the music that you're drawn to that are not necessarily specific to a genre. So, for example, I love like loud, articulate, catchy vocals, massive rhythm sections and lots of little tiny nerdy nuances that nobody notices till the 10th time they listen to your song, right? Some pop music has that, some pop music doesn't. Some hip hop has that, some hip hop doesn't. Some metal has that, some metal doesn't. Some country has that, some country doesn't. So it's not necessarily about what the genre description is and how, like, spotify categorizes it right, and it's more about what are the characteristics in the music that draw me into it.

Speaker 1: 47:44

So there's, like I would say, the kind of pop that I really am drawn to, like dualipa would be a really good fit, adele would not like I'm not saying I don't love ad, but that's not where my strengths would be or Ed Sheeran, that doesn't really check off the boxes for me of what I feel like I could really just crush in the studio. It's not just that I only do pop. I only or I don't do these other styles because they're not pop, even though they do have a lot of similar characteristics. Like that's what I like to focus on. Are the the describing the things that draw me in, the things that I really shine, or the things that make me shine. I don't know that was a. There's a sentence that makes sense and I'm not sure exactly what that is, but you know what I mean. That was a. There's a sentence that makes sense and I'm not sure exactly what that is, but you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 48:38

Like the-. Yeah, you're competing. I know exactly what you mean, though. Okay, good.

Speaker 1: 48:41

And I don't just mean the shine off my bald head right now.

Speaker 2: 48:45

But I totally get that. I totally get that. The genre categorization is problematic in many ways and even artists don't like that. I notice a lot of times when people fill out the application for our coaching program, for example, or when I ask artists who want to hire me as a mixer and I ask for their genre, I get a lot of times I get pushback where they're like I don't like to give myself a genre or whatever I don't you know. They say, like I don't know what my genre is.

Speaker 2: 49:08

I like this and I also like that, and I think I'm kind of in between. And then they start to describe what you just described as well, described as well. They start to describe the style and the character they love. That can be found in many different genres, and so I, I love this. So you said you're basically saying you can be specialized in a certain aesthetic or a certain thing. That is your thing, that you do, and that can be applied to many different genres, maybe, or with you know and and it's, yeah, hard to describe, but I think I get it. I think I get what you mean.

Speaker 1: 49:37

Yeah, yeah, because, like, if you write big, catchy vocal forward songs with loud drums and lots of little textures, count me in. You know what I mean. It doesn't matter if that's, you know, metalcore or if that's indie pop or if that's house or whatever, because I feel like I understand, I understand that energy and it doesn't mean that I can't do other things. But the way that I I describe this is that the more clear I can be about the things that I am drawn to and that I really kick ass at, that is like me having a destination for a road trip, like I want to go cross country and I having a destination for a road trip, like I want to go cross country and I have a destination that I want to go to. Now, if I only stay on the highways, going from Philadelphia on the East coast of the U S all the way out to California, if I only go on the highways, that is going to be completely missing the point of a road trip. Yeah, right, because you want, you want to stop and see all the little roadside attractions and see the country as you go through it. However, if I just say I mix pop and rap and rock and bluegrass and whatever. That's like getting in the car not knowing where you want to go, just kind of driving, you know, like you're never going to end up at the destination, that we don't even have a destination to aim for.

Speaker 1: 51:01

Yeah, so I do like to be kind of clear like, yeah, I work in a lot of pop, adjacent styles, which is a very broad, a very broad thing if you really think about it. But it doesn't mean that I don't do weird glitchy art. But it doesn't mean that I don't do weird glitchy art music sometimes. It doesn't mean that I don't do choral music randomly, but it does mean that I can decide what I want to do and what I don't want to do. If I want to take a pee break off the highway and stop at the world's largest ball of yarn, then yes, I am going to work on this ambient lo-fi album. That's like a fun little thing to stretch my legs, see the sights while I'm here, before I get back on the highway continuing towards my destination.

Speaker 2: 51:51

Got it Right, love that. And I remember Anita, because Anita said in the chat here I love this answer, thank you, and thank you, manel, for asking this. And Manel says thanks a lot. Carl Makes a lot of sense. I hate music genres so totally. And I remember Anita when we first talked in the program as well.

Speaker 2: 52:08

It was kind of the same thing where you said like, well, I like all these different artists and bands and they were kind of I totally got it. They, I totally got it. They had a vibe that they had in common, but it was totally different genres. And you explained to me how you liked certain aspects of each of those songs and what you think they have in common and why you like those. And it was the same thing, different genres, but there was one or a few common things that you liked across all of these and it was very hard to describe but I got it and yeah, so this seems to be really relevant.

Speaker 2: 52:58

No-transcript as a mixer as well where, and as a producer, where I was like, yes, I have this punk rock background and I know punk and rock and metal and heavy music and all those things, but those are very different to begin with like metal is not the same as like a punk rock record.

Speaker 2: 53:15

And then there is like indie stuff and more grungy stuff and more polished stuff and like all these. But but I always liked a certain energy and a certain vibe and a certain rawness, roughness to it. I never like yeah across all these genres and it was always very hard for me to come up with a good tagline on the website or a good, good thing that I could tell people when they asked me what my, what my, my niches are, what, what I'm specializing in always hard to put in words because it's. It doesn't look very good If you say I work with, I mix rock, punk, metal, hardcore, indie and like you have this list of genres and I was always trying to find the one word that describes it all, which is very hard to do. But yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:54

It's like I love mixing heavy bands. Yeah, you know, it's like it's a very specific word that also can be interpreted by people in much different ways, and if people, if that resonates with people, then that's all you really need.

Speaker 3: 54:13

That's the exact word I use usually is heavy, because to me, like Hurt by Johnny Cash is heavy. It's super heavy, you know, but like it's not metal it's not aggressive, but it's a heavy song. It's like you know. It can be emotionally heavy, it can be wall of sound heavy. It just has to be like impactful and I'm darn happy to be working on it.

Speaker 1: 54:31

Yeah, and if your thing is, maybe even as a mix engineer, if you love working on music that has really introspective lyrics, that's just really what draws you in, even though the lyrics aren't. You're not mixing the lyrics, you know what I mean. So it's something that's still obviously very related, but it may seem a little counterintuitive, or at least most people wouldn't think, to mention a certain lyrical style that you're drawn to when you're talking about mixing, but it absolutely is a really valid way to describe that, especially if you're like me and you're a super dork and you love to make mix decisions that, moment to moment, are reacting to the lyrics themselves. That's there. And also another thing you could do, too is I don't want to forget this One thing that I love I love contrast. As a mix engineer, I love contrast and drama. Right, so those aren't even like specific things like, oh, massive rhythm sections and like really articulate vocals, like those are broad but they're more specific than the. The pure like like almost ambiguous emotional sensation of contrast and drama and energy shifts and you know things that we were drawn to and it really it just comes down to, you know, whoever's listening to this, whether you're an artist trying to figure out how to describe the music that you make, or you're a producer, an engineer, trying to figure out how to describe the music that you're drawn to.

Speaker 1: 56:07

You know, just listen to it and just when you're, when you have a song that you're just in love with whether it's something that you've listened to a million times or a song you've heard for the first time that day try to take a step back and see what drew you in in the first place. Was it the melody that drew you in? Was it the vocal layering that drew you in? Was it the just nasty, nasty guitar tone that drew you in? There's no wrong answer and there's no one answer, but trying to take a step back in the moment and ask yourself okay, well, why?

Speaker 1: 56:40

Why is this on my reference playlist? Why is? Why does this song make me so happy? Why am I always going back to this one? Why was this in my Spotify wrapped? You know what about it made me want to listen to, you know this the, the Skrillex album Quest for Fire, so many times that it even beat out Kidz Bop. I have a shared Spotify account with my family and if something beats out Kidz Bop, you know I listen to it a lot.

Speaker 2: 57:07

But it's just asking yourself. My Spotify is wild because of my kids. I can tell you.

Speaker 1: 57:12

Oh yeah, when the Pain Remains came out, it was like Lorna Shore, shore and kids bop were like neck and neck and I love that. But even that, like, yeah, like I it's a surprise like I earlier, I'm like wearing my signs of the swarm hoodie. You know what I mean and like, but I work on pop music and I was listening to I mentioned dualipa. I was listening to, I mentioned Dua Lipa. I was listening to Dua Lipa on the way to drop my daughter off to school while wearing Signs of the Swarm hat. You know like you can listen to a bunch of different things and it's just a question of, well, what about it draws you in? What about it do you love?

Speaker 2: 57:53

Or what about it? Do you hate? Or what about if you hate? Yeah, totally. What about if?

Speaker 1: 57:56

it makes you not want to work on a particular style. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: 57:59

No, sorry, there was a delay. I thought you were done. Sorry, sorry for that, didn't want to interrupt. No, it's totally relatable. Our mutual friend, john McLucas, is a great example for that as well. He used to play in a metal band, he was a, and has listened to that, but now he's a pop producer and does totally opposite things. But I'm sure he loves to listen to some of the heavy stuff still, and why would you have to decide right and you can take all these influences and the energy and turn it into whatever you're working on.

Speaker 2: 58:28

We could go on forever about this. This is a great topic. I know we're coming up to the end of this and I think this was a very interesting episode for many reasons, because it's something we don't do very often and it's something that also is hard to put in words and to describe, because it's really about the connection and about the yeah, about how you care about music and about things that are more of a feeling thing than something like really actionable, where you do these steps and then it works, you know, kind of thing. However, carl has managed to put a lot of the branding stuff and a lot of the things that we touched on today into a system which is a course that you're offering. That is called communicating the care, attracting your ideal studio clients. So for those in the audience who want to learn about that stuff and want to dive deeper in a more, in a more structured way and, you know, have lessons and all of that there is a link, and Carl was so. Yeah, carl sent us a really cool offer, a little special thing for our listeners there so you actually get $50 off this course. If you go to theselfrecordingbandcom slash care, it will take you to that page and you will get $50 off this course. That is already very reasonably priced and I can highly recommend it. And if that is something interesting, check it out and learn from Carl himself. He has helped many producers do the same thing. There's even 100%, risk-free, 30-day money back guarantee.

Speaker 2: 59:58

So why not just try it? Why not just give it a shot if you're interested in connecting with artists and finding your ideal clients for your studio? And what I love so much about this is I wouldn't promote any kind of studio business course on this podcast, but why I'm doing this is first of all, our mutual friends who connected us and it immediately clicked and worked, and I always like to work with people that I like and that, like you, know where there's a vibe. And then, second, what I like so much about your approach, carl, is that you are good at branding and like the business side of things without doing the typical business things and without you know that's very tricky and there's a lot of people out there teaching things that are true and work in other industries and it's not wrong. But the result is a lot of artists or producers out there talking to their ideal clients like they were like, like, like you almost think like they're a law firm or something or some weird business you know, agency or I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

And I think you really, it's clear that you really care and it's clear that you communicate in a way that it resonates with artists and I want to see more of that. I don't have a problem with seeing ads on social media. I don't have a problem with seeing people selling me their stuff. If it's stuff that I actually resonate with, that speaks to me, that seems to be solving a problem for me. I don't have any problem with people selling their stuff. I just don't want to see the same business-y, sales-y type of things over and over again, and I think artists are tired of that as well. So I'm all for more connection, more care, being more selective with who you work with, building great teams to create more great art in the world, and Carl can be a part of that puzzle and help you do that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:35

How could you just like everything that I need said about me? I'm just gonna be like hey hey, benny, can you?

Speaker 2: 1:01:42

just like just say something nice about my sweater or something you know, and the next thing you know, I'm gonna have like this beautiful monologue that I can use.

Speaker 1: 1:01:51

Like I I I need more of you in my life um just for the ego boost. I love it, thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 1:01:57

Luckily we recorded that, carl, so it's all yours.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

I'm gonna make that my ringtone yeah, alarm clock yeah, I just I just literally made that up right now, but but I feel I feel like that, so for that, so it's real, I mean it and I love to connect you with people that can hopefully then learn from you and, yeah, it's better, it's a win-win-win scenario, so I like that. Anything else, carl, anything we forgot to talk about? Where else can we point people to your?

Speaker 1: 1:02:26

socials. Your website, yeah, at Carl Bonner C-A-R-L-B-A-H-N-E-R, Go to my website, carlbonnercom. I would love to. I mean, obviously go to my website. If it doesn't speak to you, that's cool. But I feel like it's a good example of kind of the things I was talking about, about trying to really be specific, to making the people that go to that site feel immediately heard and understood, and then if it does speak to you, then obviously we should talk about it too. So, yeah, say hi on Instagram. I'm a dork. I'm there all the time. I like having conversations, I like meeting people. So love to see you there and I'm just so immensely thankful for you having me on this podcast, not just for the glowing reviews you continue to give me, but just for both of you being so wonderful and kind and really just trying to look out for your audience and just give them the best experience and careers that they could possibly have, and I just I want to say that on behalf of all of your listeners thank you guys for what you're doing. Cheers, buddy.

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

Thank you. Thanks so much, carl. I really appreciate that. See, I got my monologue that I can put on the website or somewhere. Awesome, dude, that's so great. Yes, I'm going to put all of that in the show notes, the links, the socials, the course, all of that, and I hope we stay in touch and I think we will. Anita says thank you, so they've enjoyed it as well. Good to know. Yeah, I think this is awesome and yeah, we'll be in touch. And if there are any follow-up questions or if we get the feedback from when the podcast is out, I'm just going to send you that stuff. Don't feel the need to reply to everything or whatever, but I'm just going to send you stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

Oh yeah, awesome, I want to reply to it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:12

Great. Thanks so much. Have a great day, carl and you guys. Thank you for listening and we talk to you next week, as always. Thank you so much.