212: Songwriting & Sync Licensing Deep Dive - With Lars Deutsch

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Episode show notes:

We interviewed Lars Deutsch on the podcast and the result is a masterclass in songwriting and sync licensing. Is your song telling a story?

This was our exclusive opportunity to pick the brain of a super successful songwriter and sync-licensing expert.

Lars Deutsch currently lives in L.A. and has worked with brands and artists like Adidas, Amazon, Brett Gelman (Stranger Things, The Other Guys), Budweiser, FOX, Ghostface Killah (Wu-Tang Clan), Katie Melua, Mercedes-Benz, and many more.


The two-time Emmy winner is self-recording his music, but also collaborating with other engineers, depending on the project.

He went from heavy metal guitarist, to singer, to songwriter, to a Masters in classical composition, to international performances of his classical works, to lecturing in composition and audio production to scoring three hundred films / commercials that have collected over one hundred awards.


His songs are in high demand and Lars is a producer at Built To Last Music, a company that features multiple Oscar nominees and Grammy winners.

Recent projects include: Stephen King’s “The Passenger”, “Future Proof” with Keke Palmer, a commercial with James Earle Jones (Darth Vader), plus live mixes and an Intel commercial with the Higher Brothers. 


If you're interested in the sync licensing world and want to know how to get started in this industry, this is for you.

You'll learn how high the bar actually is when it comes to the quality of your music and what Lars does to keep his chops and creativity fresh.

And if just want to improve your songwriting skills for your own projects, this is your chance to learn from a true master of the craft.



PS: Please join the conversation by leaving a comment on YouTube, a rating and review on your podcast app, or a post inside our free Facebook community.

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For links to everything we've mentioned in this episode, as well as full show notes go to: https://theselfrecordingband.com/212
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If you have any questions, feedback, topic ideas or want to suggest a guest, email us at: podcast@theselfrecordingband.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Like. My job is not. I don't want to change anybody's music. I don't want to change their, their intent. There's a reason they get motivated by their stuff, and if they talk to me, there's also a chance that they've played enough shows or something where people like what they do. So it's not my. I don't want to kind of like undermine what makes them special. The idea, though, is that there's craftsmanship aspects that you cannot know. That's one thing, so I'm basically. My job is to make you sound more like you, because I can provide certain technical craftsmanship structure things that you may not be aware of.

Speaker 2: 0:36

This is the self recording band podcast, the show where we help you make exciting records on your own wherever you are DIY style let's go. Hello and welcome to the self recording band podcast. I am your host, benedict Hein. If you are new to the show, welcome. So glad to have you. If you are already a listener, welcome back.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Always glad to have you back, and today this is a really special episode that we bring to you because we have the opportunity to pick the brain of a really successful songwriter and also a sync licensing expert, and his name is Lars Deutsch. He currently lives in LA. I had the chance to briefly met him and chat with him for like 10 minutes, which was already amazing, when I was in LA earlier this year. He has written music for brands and artists like Adidas, amazon, budweiser Fox, ghostface Killer, katie Mellua the list goes on and on. If you go to his website, there is a whole bunch of brands and artists you are probably familiar with, and I can't wait to talk about songwriting and licensing and all those things.

Speaker 2: 1:40

We got a lot of questions from our coaching students that I'm excited to ask. We even got some people backstage here asking questions live, which is a first for us, I think. So let's see how that goes. Welcome, lars, to the podcast. So glad to have you and thank you so much for taking the time to do this. Thank you, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:56

I appreciate it. I am always very mindful when people kind of present the credits they don't have, so I did not write for Katie Mellua. That was a sync thing here in the US and Ghostface Killer was a mix I did a couple of times for broadcast. All right, good to know.

Speaker 2: 2:17

Thank you for clarifying that. But the brands, it's true.

Speaker 1: 2:18

True, true, I wrote music for commercials for those brands, and in the last two or three weeks there was also SoFi, which is a bank in the US, I guess, and Samsung Awesome.

Speaker 2: 2:29

Awesome, really cool. Yeah, sorry for forgetting that wrong. I just saw the list of credits and it didn't specify what exactly you did. But great to know. Yeah, I know. But you work with those people, which is great, awesome and, as always, I'm not doing this by myself, of course. I'm here with my friend and co-host, malcolm Owen Flutt. How are you, buddy?

Speaker 3: 2:45

I'm great. I'm great, yeah, and thank you, lars. Thanks for coming on. I'm excited to chat with you, to be here and, yeah, as mentioned before we started recording this. I'm sad I mistook on tacos with you guys, damn in LA. But yeah, yeah, I'm really excited to learn from you and you've got a very impressive resume, so this will be really great to learn about how you do what you do.

Speaker 2: 3:04

Yeah, this is going to be great for many reasons. First of all, I'm personally interested in many things here, and the other thing is that I know that our audience is really, really interested in that whole topic. First of all, most people that listen to our show or that we work with are songwriters. They're right there on music, so that's always relevant, and then most of them get the idea that the good song is the most important thing, right, and so even before, like all the recording and mixing and all of that. And then also I know that a lot of people, especially the ones in our coaching program, are interested in the licensing thing. So that's something that comes up all the time, and I'm not the best expert at this, so I rarely give advice and like not at all actually in this area, other than a few things that I know or heard of from other people. So it's really good to bring in an expert on that topic and finally be able to hopefully answer some of these questions.

Speaker 2: 3:52

And yeah, so this is going to be really, really exciting and I'm glad we get to do this Now. For those of you watching for the listening for the first time, just know that this is both an audio podcast on Spotify, apple podcast, wherever you consume podcasts, but it's also going to be a video format on YouTube, as always. So wherever you prefer to consume this, just know there's two options to do that. So I don't know, maybe there's something you might want to see, like the mug that Lars showed us before.

Speaker 1: 4:19

The mug. I didn't know it was a video, otherwise I switched on the fancy lights. But okay, All good, all good you look great, great Lars.

Speaker 2: 4:27

So just really quickly. We talked about that briefly before. We won't do like the full life story, basically because we have a lot of things to go through, but still a quick intro or like addition to the intro that I did for, just for people who don't know you yet. Maybe there's some info that you've not been asked a thousand times already or that you've not answered a thousand times already, but that might be interesting for our audience.

Speaker 1: 4:50

So the quick, quick version is I grew up in a little village in Germany, not to like a family of musicians or music teachers, but I started playing a band. I really enjoyed it and for some reason that I still don't fully understand, that straight away went into this mindset of storytelling, like I wanted to be able to do all the colors and basically I don't know subconsciously understood that this is like the art of communication. And I studied classical music even though I had no background in classical music and the Bachelor's of Masters in classical composition in London and went back to Germany taught for a while and then I went to the US with a film with Joseph Fiennes and Ian McKellen that I scored. They got premiered here to be shortlisted for an Oscar.

Speaker 1: 5:39

And I've been in LA for 14 years and I work a lot with artists. So I write, co-write with artists, produce artists, develop artists, but then also write a lot for a TV documentary. I just finished a documentary, a couple of commercials and a number of the artists that I work with. Their material goes into my sync library and so I'm involved in this world as well.

Speaker 2: 6:07

And that's great, thank you. Thank you, that's very interesting and also already brings up a couple of questions. So, before we get into our audience's questions, which will be the majority of this episode, because they're really great, but do you do when you say you write with these artists or for these artists, and then those things end up in your library sometimes or I'm sure there's different things there that you do Do you produce not just write, but also produce record, mix and all of that yourself, or are you collaborating with others? How does that work? Because I know you've got a good home studio set up and all of that, but is this the place where you work with those people, or good, you go?

Speaker 1: 6:44

to studios.

Speaker 2: 6:45

Is there any collaboration? How does that work?

Speaker 1: 6:47

Yes, so most of the time it depends a little bit. I had a yesterday at a meeting with somebody where we are doing something very live and then I'm going to go to a nice life room, but I usually record vocals here. So over the years I've worked on my mixing so much the last 20 years where I'm not standing in the way of success anymore when I'm mixing and mastering the material, and I'm also getting hired now by people who basically had the same problem before I was able to mix on this level, which is that sometimes mixing engineers don't get the story and that seems to be like musicians want to make things sound nice, mixing engineers want to make things sound big and, as I said, I'm more of a story guy. So I started to mix a lot of the material myself, because, even working with the best engineers, you would send 10 songs and three would be really difficult to do Because of the. You know you had an interesting idea, different story, and but over the years I kind of like I'm able to do the entire workflow, beginning to end.

Speaker 1: 8:00

Having said that, I'm also I'm more than happy to just take part of a workflow. So I actually have this a number of mixing engineers who I work with who basically throw like they. They have a mix. The artist may not be 100% happy and maybe there's a good communication going and somebody says, you know, maybe the problem is that the chorus doesn't kick for different reasons than just the mix, and one of the things that I can do them with my classical background is go in and make strategic changes to kind of elevate that and. But yeah, technically I can do the entire workflow and it really depends on what the what the artist wants. There's people who are very sensitive to getting their music like to work on songwriting with anybody and I get. Last year I mixed an album that they charted in Germany and in the US where the band wouldn't give me dry vocals, and so it's different every time.

Speaker 2: 9:00

I mean, but it worked right. They were probably precious about what they recorded and you made it work, so sometimes that's what it was.

Speaker 1: 9:08

We get along very well. There wasn't that easy the first two buttons, because there was all these delays baked into the lead vocal, so the T from like a bar ago would step on another T or something. So that was. That was interesting, interesting experience. There was a lot of forensic stuff going on.

Speaker 2: 9:28

Yeah, I can imagine that's. Yeah, that's sometimes that's what it takes, right, it's good to hear those things as well. Now, you said a couple of times something that I think is really interesting, and you mentioned that already when we talked in LA the whole story aspect of it. Like, can you, can you talk about that a little more, what that actually means for somebody listening? Now, like, what do you mean? Why is the story part in songwriting so important to you, and what is it that you're looking for or that you do to make that the best it can be?

Speaker 1: 9:55

So I think that we like this. This, this song is like a, like a Polaroid, and you want to have the kind of the perfect expression of this moment, and if every element aligns to tell one story, it becomes successful in. It Just is something that you, you relate to, and so it's this. It even extends outside of the music to the look, to the video and the pictures, and so there is stuff where, like an example that they're like using is I.

Speaker 1: 10:29

I once worked with a singer who was very, very good, very professional, doing lots of jazz shows, and I needed to record a song for a film that played in a jazz club at like 3am at night, and we know that the love affair of the two main character that meet there is doomed.

Speaker 1: 10:46

So I need to give the audience some hope, but I need to plan the seat of doubt.

Speaker 1: 10:52

So I asked the singer what her comfortable vocal range is and I wrote the song below that, and so she sounds a little less comfortable, but she also sounds darker and lower and it's a little sexier and it sounds like 3am. So I made a judgment call for not utilizing kind of the brightest and most polished part of her voice. I used the one below, and you know you can do stuff like this where you have. You have that ballad and that intimate moment where you make sure that you record the loudest screaming thing before and maybe make the artist do a couple too many takes and then change the session to a different one and then have them whisper in the microphone and you can still hear the strain on the voice. And this, this kind of like this thinking, extends into what chord changes, what melodies and and I think it helps to have a guiding principle outside of always this pretty or not, and yeah, it's not all about it just being a perfect polished mix or catchy song.

Speaker 3: 11:57

OK, this is fascinating.

Speaker 1: 11:58

And so I worked with a really cool rapper and we did this high energy hip hop stuff and I had a lot of like the brass, big drums and him and I did all of these things where would trip up the beat, where you would have two over four bars or things with accents and it it makes a big difference to. And then I asked him to record like this is a punk song. So we kind of split the song in like three bits and it's like high speed rapping and we said, ok, we'll do three takes and whatever it is with three takes and I don't want to cut into it. And then he's hyped up, he's going and it's a completely different thing.

Speaker 1: 12:35

As if I would have said yeah we just do as many takes as you know, as it needs, and so now you can listen to that song and he's doing a fantastic job, but you can hear how he's struggling for the last, the end of the phrase, and so it's kind of the yodel there with him.

Speaker 1: 12:50

And so I like this idea of like touching every possible aspect to it to make make a compelling, unique story. And when we talk, one of those things was when we talked about the name of your podcast, and one of the one of the things I one of the issues I have with this whole idea of Democratization of music and everybody can record at home is not the actual recording, it's what comes before, where you develop the material and that's where people don't understand that, like the, the big artists on the radio, there's just almost nobody who writes their own songs, or by themselves at least there's development happening and I'm not saying you need to have like a radio sound, I'm just saying that there is like a craftsmanship that happens outside of you playing your instrument and before somebody presses record, which is very important to me.

Speaker 2: 13:42

And you're totally right and this is.

Speaker 2: 13:44

I love that and that stuck with me also from our conversation and this is why, also in our program, for example, people are sometimes a little surprised when they come in and figure out that the first module, for example, which we call the foundation, is not about recording at all.

Speaker 2: 13:56

It's about the arrangement, the song, the, you know all those things you just talked about, before we even get ready to record it, because they assume they come in and it's, it's, we're talking straight, you know EQ, compression and all those things, but it starts way before that and some people need more help with that than others, of course, but it is a very important part of it and I think what's interesting is maybe you disagree there, but in our world, where we do a lot of band music rock bands, punk bands, indie, alternative, that sort of stuff the idea that someone else is collaborating with you on the writing is still kind of foreign or like.

Speaker 2: 14:28

Not many people do it versus in like with the pop people that we work with or that I know they are much more used to that concept and it's not as surprising anymore. So why do you think is it that bands or some artists are kind of hesitant to get help there. I mean, it's totally fine if you want to do it all on your own, but I also don't think there's anything wrong about, you know, collaborating on the writing If that is not what you're best at, maybe. So yeah, I have.

Speaker 1: 14:52

I have had so many meetings over coffee where there's the entire band and you could see one person is like is always like a second away from you know, pulling up the car and kind of loading the band and driving, driving off, and I've had many occasions where somebody recommended me and then there's a band that's interesting, that's cool, and it's three people that want to do it, and then the guitarist says like, nah, I can't do this. So it is. It is pretty normal.

Speaker 1: 15:19

I think that one misconception is that, like, my job is not I don't want to change anybody's music. I don't want to change their. There's a reason they get motivated by their stuff, and if they talk to me, there's also a chance that they've played enough shows or something where people like what they do. So it's not my. I don't want to kind of like, undermine what makes them special. The idea, though, is that there's craftsmanship aspects that you cannot know. That's one thing, so I'm basically my job is to make you sound more like you, because I can provide certain technical craftsmanship structure things that you may not be aware of.

Speaker 1: 15:58

The other thing that can be interesting when the band has been around for a while is you can open up some structures and some ideas.

Speaker 1: 16:06

And there's this, like you know, if you talk about metal, for example, there's this thing when you go into the faster, louder stuff, where everybody's tuned down, the bassist is playing really fast, the guitarist playing really fast, really low, and then somebody is singing over that really low, and then you have a double bass and they're surprised why it doesn't sound good.

Speaker 1: 16:25

And it's just a matter of kind of like, sometimes just like OK, why don't we try, like explaining what's happening physically and how you can maybe start arranging your material so you have a moment of space for the singer and then you can have the big aggression coming from the guitar. And sometimes it's just like conceptual things as well, where, because you're in it as an artist, so the artist kind of goes down the rabbit hole and needs to be selfish. That's how they got where they are. And so the benefit of working with somebody like like me is I'm not going to drag you out of your style or any of this, I'm just going to give you some options that are extra. But it is a problem, and I think that people who play in a rock band think that this is kind of like we're making a step towards selling out, or this is I don't know what, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 17:17

But I would say you help them sound Sorry. I love how you said you help them sound more like them actually and tell their story even better. That's, that's really the key thing here. Once you understand that, it makes so much more sense because you don't know what you don't know, and if someone from the outside comes in and helps you express what you want to express anyways, even better. I mean, that's just a good thing, right?

Speaker 1: 17:36

So yeah, and the other thing with this is that there is this weird misconception that you play an instrument that makes you a songwriter, and I I kind of like sometimes it's the song, is your oil at the end of the day. You want to like. Somebody hears the song, they don't know who you are, they don't know your story or anything, they just want to. They want to be convinced by the song, they want to get the energy of the song, and if you have not paid rent once in your life with songwriting, you effectively making an amateur be like your, and there's an amateur in charge of your oil, of what will drive your business, and so it's.

Speaker 1: 18:16

It's not, it's not always the wisest choice, I. I would like to say, though, that I think it's important to keep authenticity and fight for who you are, and there's the stuff that makes you you, and I'm not like. I'm not a fan of homogenizing things, and when I don't need to use a tuning software, I won't, because so to keep your voice more the way it was, so there's usually just a matter of finding an agreement on OK, these are things we will touch, these are things we won't touch. These are things we will try. These are things we will not try. And yeah, I mean it's, a lot of the bands you like also have co-writers. I mean it's it's just, it's my not.

Speaker 2: 20:40

It's true. Yeah, I love all of that. That's great, and I love also how you put it in perspective that it's not about, you know, making them sound different or making the record sound like you would want it to sound like it's it's. It's still them as artists. That's important, of course, so I love that.

Speaker 1: 20:54

What, what? This is so simple. I don't know why it took me so long to figure this out. I now I also tell people, you know that I'm 100 percent inconsequential. If you want me to be inconsequential, you know I'm like the, the consult, you like, you listen to it and you're like no, this is stupid, we're not going to do this. The end Like it's, like I have no, I have no power in that Like. Sometimes I get hired by the management or the label where they ask me to kind of work on certain things, but then I usually make sure that the band knows that. And I had a case where everybody agreed on how a song should be mixed, but the singer and she kept calling me and I said look, I am at the end of the day, I'm your servant. But to me a favor, you convince your, your A&R, your label, they call me, give me the exact same note, I will do it.

Speaker 2: 21:42

And yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. It's in this case. In these cases, it's a matter of like who is the actual producer of the record? Right, if you are hired to mix and allowed to make suggestions or whatever, then it's fine. They can say no. So, like you said, the end. But if you're hired to produce, it's a different thing, because then your responsibility is to make the best record possible, and sometimes you have to fight for your ideas then, and it's like whoever is in charge of the production? If it's the band themselves, well, that's one thing, but if it's you, or if you're co-producing, maybe you need to find a solution that works, and this is all about communication as well. Yeah, very interesting, yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:17

I do like Lars's point, though, especially when it pertains to songwriting and bands. Maybe being hesitant to work with a songwriter is like, like you said, it's like if you don't want to take my suggestion, it's no problem, I'm just offering them. It's kind of like a zero risk situation. It's like, just try it my way, we'll spend a day together, and if you think we have a better song, you have a better song. Otherwise, just go back to the way you had it. There's zero risk, yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:40

And there's something where what I so I'm very lucky here in LA. I'm surrounded by fantastic musicians and sometimes things happen. Like you know, I'm at Quincy Jones birthday via Jam Guard and you have the thriller band play in front of you, and on Sunday I saw Stu Ham, the guitarist of the doors, and all of these fantastic musicians really close by and I always feel like I'm not a humble guy at all, but I totally totally totally see these people as a completely different species from me in terms of what they can do on their instrument.

Speaker 1: 23:17

I am also aware that some of these guys have been on stages for 50 years and they are so comfortable and it's such a high level and there's a reason I am not on this stage and there is a reason why I am on this level in what I do, and so I understand my limitations somewhere else, but I also understand what I can bring elsewhere, and there is this. It's kind of just have some respect in every direction. I think that's very useful here, and there's stuff where I listen to these fantastic musicians and they play their own material and it would be very easy for me to improve on that, and that is because of the way my brain works. And also because of the way my brain works, I'm not great on stage because I'm starting to produce in my head while I play and people can see that, and then it's very obvious I'm the German on stage and somebody needs to get me off. So it's kind of so. I guess what I'm saying is this this a lot of times when, when you song, write as a musician, when you kind of think like a musician, you want to have something sound nice in the moment, but you're not necessarily thinking of arcs or a communication. That goes one level above that.

Speaker 1: 24:35

And I've had, you know I've had discussions. We had a. I worked on a ballad with a singer where the only solution was that the chorus was the lowest energy point in the song and we made it. We made everything kind of emotional and the chorus was ice cold and it blew you away and it was the exact opposite of what the singer came with. But that that's what that particular song needed. So you build up all of this, so you have this feeling. Now the big chorus happens like it would happen in every song, but this particular song, even though it was a dark ballad, it was weirdly in major most of the time and we went to minor in the chorus, we bled out all high frequency and now it's heartbreaking and it's this, it's these, these decisions that are important and that are often hard to see, if it's kind of, if it's your baby or if you think like him as a musician.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Yeah, totally. One more thing I'd like to ask before we get dive into all the good questions that we got Do you think that kind of confidence that you obviously have in your craft and right fully so, do you think that this confidence is also part of what makes someone a good songwriter, that you can have to have that to a degree, because I talked to a lot of people who there's people who have way too confident with certain things, but then there's also many people who are actually great artists and have great ideas and are good songwriters maybe not on your level or like a professional level, but they don't believe in their own ideas at all or they are very quick.

Speaker 2: 26:01

if you give them feedback, they are very quick to like throw away whatever they had and just do something else, because they are lacking the confidence to make these decisions and also fight for their vision. So how do you see that? Is confidence an important part of being a good songwriter?

Speaker 1: 26:15

Yeah, I think experience is really vital. And if you look at who's mixing more, most things that you hear on the radio, those are all guys in their 60s, some in their 70s and or I don't know, late 50s. And this is a matter of that is that you've been long enough in studios to make every possible mistake. And with songwriting and dealing with artists, I've I've I think I've by now had coffee with 500 different artists, with 500 different filmmakers. And if, if sometimes some people ask me for, like you know, like old session files, and if I look at, the array of heart is full of projects, it's just, it's a depth of experience, and with that comes a certain level of confidence and experience. And I think that for me I'd like to think things through. But in the past I didn't know when to stop and so I could be the, the annoying producer that went on forever and whose instructions were there were too many instructions and this and that, and once I kind of worked on that and mellowed out a little bit. I'm very comfortable. I'm very comfortable and that's very hard to imagine. Something you can throw at me where I wouldn't have an option to figure something out, and it's. It's kind of ironic how past obsessiveness helps me to be more relaxed now.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I remember I was working with an artist and we had we had a lot of edgy, cool songs and then we had a ballad, which a really beautiful ballad, but she was rightfully worried that it would stick out with all the other stuff because we were kind of imagining her as this like little rebellious, like the in camouflage in a Jeep on a on on an island somewhere, kind of starting the rebellion.

Speaker 1: 28:05

That was all of the songs. And then we have a ballad which was almost too pretty and me, being a composer, at some point I sat down and I wrote 14 different versions of her getting into the chorus, literally 14 center of video, talked to her through all 14. And she called back and she said, like well, it's kind of impressive, but what do I do with this? And I said, well, which one do you like the most? And we picked that one. And just being able to to see 14 different ways out of something really relaxes you. And I think that's where where it comes in. It's not so much like I'm not, like don't break up confident, it's more like you know you work yourself into some confidence every day, totally true.

Speaker 2: 28:48

Totally true, yeah, yeah, it definitely comes with experience. I've heard this quote that I really love that confidence comes from having an undeniable stack of proof that you are who you say you are and you have done the work to become who you are right now. And then, if you have that, why wouldn't you be confident? That, like, it's probably the same with all kinds of professions.

Speaker 1: 29:06

So, yeah, I would like also to say would like everybody, like in tech and some everybody's always talking about data and and like I, actually like like science, I like to read studies and stuff, but I I listened to a wonderful interview with a, with a scientist, and they were talking about predictions with the future and like building a workable life model for yourself. And at some point this guy says that you know, like, data is unlimited, so at some point faith needs to take over, and he didn't mean that like like in any, any kind of faith, and so I really liked that where now I'm, I'm thinking through a scenario to a point where I'm like, okay, I feel I've, I've done my work, and then I relax and have faith. And you both know that working in music, one out of 100 things you touch, you know, gets big and works really well. You need to be at peace with the other 99. And yeah, you need to have that, that, that faith. And maybe one more thing about this I used to work with somebody who, who would say stuff like if it's meant to be, it's meant to be, and everything happens for a reason, and I was thinking about this a lot and I felt like this was kind of wisdom and lazy at the same time, and at some point I talked to a to a coach and she said something smart about that.

Speaker 1: 30:27

She said like it is what it is is absolute genius, if you deserve to say it. Otherwise it's very toxic. And I think that's very, very cool, because you work very hard and then, instead of staying obsessive, annoying and difficult, you give yourself okay, you do the checkmark, I've worked hard enough, and now you can say it is what it is. You're not allowed to say before that Okay, yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2: 30:53

I get it. That's interesting. That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I totally, totally make sense, yeah, great. So I would love to dive into some of the questions, because we got so many, malcolm, is there anything you want to add? Before that? And if I go through the questions, just feel free, of course, to chime in and do follow up questions or whatever. I just want to give people the chance to get their questions answered, because they're great ones.

Speaker 3: 31:11

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure a lot of the questions are going to pertain to what I'm curious about as well. I think I am curious about I mean I'm curious about some of the business sides of like what you do, like when you are co-writing. Is it like front end or back end, focused with how you make a living? And so, because I think artists might be curious about how that works, I mean I'd be jumping all over the place if I just start listing all my questions.

Speaker 2: 31:35

I think some of those are actually in there.

Speaker 3: 31:37

We'll get through that, yeah, okay, let's see, right, right, the one thing that is. I was just thinking about, though, because I was looking at your studio and the video feed here, which looks like a very nice room, and you have a window, which I do not have in here, and I did, in my research, find a post of you saying something like that you're happier working with the sun around you and not in a dark room. Yes, and it was. I think it was related to your headphones, this post. So I'm wondering do you primarily try to work outside of a dark room, like it is something you're actively trying to do? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:07

So I got the, I got the room measured and I started to order a system of like mobile walls and units and when the first batch arrived and I set them up, I'm just just looking at this and it didn't feel right and I mean this might be a completely different podcast because I I worked very hard on non-musical things to be functional all the time, so like basically what's called biohacking and every possible aspect of this.

Speaker 1: 32:39

And when I, when I set up these, these panels, the, my second window here would, would have been blocked by like 80%, so I would, out of the two windows I have here, I would have had 10% of sunlight left. And, to put this in context, I'm not wearing sunglasses in the morning, I'm out of the house. Between the time I wake up and me being out of the house is never more than like 10 minutes and I do a lot of things to be kind of in this, like natural flow, and a friend of mine built a fantastic, super impressive studio and I mean if, if he wants to mix and he wants to have the biggest sub in the planet, it's, it's tight, it's correct, it's a an engineer's dream.

Speaker 3: 33:25

I picked sunlight and yeah, I I well, I think it's relevant especially with, like, the songwriting topic because, like I don't know, creativity for me is not an infinite resource at all. I need to have, like, a lot of energy. If I try and write, at the end of a day there's nothing coming out of me. I'm a morning guy, so so, like, having energy is is crucial and and, like I said, there's no window in the air, this is a dark room. So I have to come in, do my work. Well, there's energy, and then I like, by the time I leave this room, there's nothing left and I feel so drained in here.

Speaker 1: 33:56

After working for a long time, I'm looking here. This is, this is the one thing that I've had for my entire career and this is what I would recommend. If you don't have sunlight where you, you set the time and then you get up and get out quick and then go back in or something and go get some.

Speaker 3: 34:15

No, that's a lot easier when you're in LA, because on the West Coast up of Canada there's no sun.

Speaker 2: 34:19

So yeah, yeah, Well, I mean you talk. When I was there, there was only sun.

Speaker 3: 34:23

Like that was. I know I'm not dramatic. We got go.

Speaker 1: 34:26

No, I think that I mean you make different choices. Like I had an interview here with with Warren Huart and when we were done we were talking and it was really nice and he said, you know, you can't bring like a like you know, if you bring a rapper here who pulls up with the, the, the loaner car that you know is supposed to show his status, you know he comes with the extra big car and then somebody comes into essentially a second bedroom, you're kind of you're done and I I had that. I had that with the band, where they loved what I did. Then they came here and it took them a week to get over the fact that, because the last time they were in a studio of this size and so there's limitations with this. But I do like, I do like this very flexible, fluid thing and I mean I also, you know, like if you want a nicer studio, we go to a nicer studio.

Speaker 2: 35:16

Yeah, exactly Like that's always an option and I also think, in addition to the sunlight you got to, if you're creative, I think you have to expose yourself to all kinds of different. You know sensations and like things you see and all these experiences and like even just being outside and even if you don't do anything really exciting, just walking around and the environment changes slightly. That is, I think, important versus just staring at the same wall all day, like I think I really think you need those these experiences and you never know, you might come across something inspiring and then you know. I really believe that I feel like my, my creativity really hits a low point when I spent a lot of time in the same room. After a while, I just need to to see something else.

Speaker 1: 35:59

I got two simultaneous texts the other day from friends who work in a rehearsal studio here with us, a coffee shop, and I hadn't gone for like two days and they both texted me hey, are you still in LA? Where did you move? And kind of making a joke, because I'm there so much.

Speaker 1: 36:14

I've set up my life that I have two coffees a day and I think it's it's an hour's walk for 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back for a coffee, and I find that I can do a lot of my work in my head while I work there and then that I am. It's such it refreshes me so much and I do the. I do kind of more shorter chunks of better work now and that really works for me, and being more at peace also really helps with all of this. So I do the like before I angle, write the email, I go for a walk, grab my coffee, work, walk back, and by the time I'm back, either they have already kind of like changed their mind or I have something much better to respond than I would have had if I would have responded straight away.

Speaker 2: 37:05

I wish, so I wish that more people would do it, would behave like that and do it like that. Yeah, definitely a good idea to take that break before you write an angry email. Anyway, great, let's go to the questions that I can't wait to do this. So the first one, or the first batch of questions, actually comes from Brian, brian Heinebier. He is here in the backstage room so good to have you, brian and he asked in advance actually, and he's one of our syndicate members the coaching program and he says I know it is very hard to enter into the sync world, how did you get your start?

Speaker 1: 37:40

Yeah, I think one thing that is very important to understand about the sync world is that when Napster hit and record labels were shook up, the people in power then a lot of them scrambled to sync. So when this is now a topic and you have these like Instagram stories of people like this, I'm going to teach you how to do sync and this and that can I keep in the back of your mind. You're all like 20 years late, and this is true for me as well. So there's a couple of players and there's people in studios and like music supervisors in studios and outside of studios. A lot of them moved out of the label system into these positions, and so if you're an indie artist, that means you're not. It's not. This idea that this is a simple, direct thing is not true.

Speaker 1: 38:29

What I find for myself personally is that the quality of my music leads to music supervisors listening again the next time because it's very, very random. So you have a song, the song is really great. You pitch it for something where you think it's great. The music supervisor knows a lot more than you know about the project. They listen to it for three seconds. They know it won't work. So that's the standard, like there's a 99% chance it will not work. But if you have just sent something that they would respect at some point, you get on different lists and you get more briefs and things change.

Speaker 1: 39:05

And if you have something that happened to me like one and a half years ago where I was, I have like a small group of people where, when I have the first version that I think is release ready, I sent that out and one of the directors just didn't even go via music supervisor.

Speaker 1: 39:22

One of the directors said I want this in my commercial before it comes out. So things like this can happen, but it's lots and lots and lots of pitching and it's just a lot of pitching and at the end of the day, it's a slow process of building the relationships and understanding how they work. I also would really recommend, if you can work with a professional and then maybe keep in mind there's just a kind of a high end and a volume business. And the other day this rapper I worked with texted me and say hey, check out Love and Hip Hop in Atlanta and he told me which season, which episode and I'm playing this and they're playing one of our songs and, yeah, great, so we have like 18 seconds of music of Love and Hip Hop in Atlanta and this is going to pay for one coffee.

Speaker 2: 40:12

And yeah so it's very.

Speaker 1: 40:15

This is a completely different scenario than having a song in a World Cup commercial where this if you, if you play it right, pays for three years of your life. And so I think sync is a slow things to work, slow kind of like. It takes time to work your way into it and if you can use a partner, use a partner and about one piece of information about the partner is a lot of these volume companies now have hundreds of thousands of albums and millions of tracks, which means there is no reasonable assumption that you send something and it happens straight away. And I would also say that there is a very inhumane part of this where people would just send you emails and kind of sign your stuff, put it in a library and then it just dies there, and that's why it's like signing something exclusive is really tricky. If you do something exclusive, those people should work their ass off to get your music heard. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 41:17

That's actually one of the next questions of his. He says, like any any thoughts or pros and cons on exclusive versus non exclusive library deals.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Basically, yeah, I mean so from this is almost like a philosophical, philosophical thing where I'm doing everything non exclusive unless somebody's paying me to write for them, and then then this exclusive can be part of the deal. The problem with non exclusive stuff is that you cannot base, you can't do out anything out of your own network. Like you know, I have I have a set of exclusive tracks. If I get a brief and this is a perfect fit, I cannot pitch that track. Somebody else has the rights exclusive. I can tell them to pitch. But so this is not. It's a little bit problematic.

Speaker 1: 42:00

So for exclusive, I would make sure that there's a way to get out of it. First thing. And second thing is exclusive can make sense when the other side is really working for it. And I get this. This licensing company, there's this good people who don't want the same song to be pitched by anybody else, and I just people that like my music, that I like that. We don't get to work together because of that. But if you sign anything exclusive, you also need things need to happen, things need to move and you need to make sure that you're not just kind of dying at the bottom of their actual table.

Speaker 2: 42:36

Yeah, sure, Totally, thank you. So Brian also says I hear much of being successful and you kind of also touched on that a little bit. We need to, don't need to go, you don't need to repeat yourself, of course, but the still a good point. He says I hear that much of being successful and sync is not only having great music but having the right networking and relationships, which you briefly touched on as well. Any tips or ways to build those relationships for those of us who don't live in LA or Nashville, etc. Where where much of this stuff is happening?

Speaker 1: 43:05

Yeah, I would say two things to this. The first thing is that I spend a lot of time. So when this call is over, I have a brief that's waiting for. When this call is over, I'm going to service that brief and I will put together a playlist. I can see if I rearrange something I have and then I send it out, and this is a pretty non creative endeavor, and for 100 pitches you get close ones.

Speaker 1: 43:32

So if you want to be an artist, it's a good idea to have an eye on sync, but I don't know if you want to start building a website or a like a playlist and then spend time cultivating all of these relationships. If you also could, you know, talk to venues or an audience or this and that so it's. The question is I want to it make. Does it make sense in what you do and how you do it? If you are somebody who doesn't play, who is not on tour and it's just going via releases, you have a little bit more time and sync can be a more sensible endeavor.

Speaker 1: 44:09

I would, generally speaking, I always encourage people to work with partners, and this is also my. My thing is now I I don't actively go out directly and say like oh, you know, I want to work with this artist or something like this. I go and meet the publisher you know there's one level of professional in there and so somebody. If you can have a licensing partner ideally a real person that you can call and you give them your material and they pitch for you, that frees up some time and they have better contacts about building these relationships, it's kind of difficult.

Speaker 1: 44:48

It's also difficult when you're in LA or Nashville it just works via the, the, the quality, and I mean I, the same person that listens to me now, would have not listened 10 years ago. It's just the way it is. I mean yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: 45:02

What do you think? Oh sorry, malcolm, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 45:04

Could you briefly just describe? Describe what you mean when you say you have a brief coming up. That's actually not a term that I don't think I've heard before.

Speaker 1: 45:11

So for commercials. I get two different briefs. One is like like to jump on and score something. So this can be either on a commercial where there is a visual or where there's no visual. So it's basically a composition brief. Like you know, you go start writing something for this.

Speaker 1: 45:31

Or you get a sync brief like a library poll, where and this is what I get that got this morning there's a description. There's two different musics in there. They want everybody to send three pieces for the two different music and it needs to be there by the end of the day. They always create a custom playlist for them and try to be as close as possible with the version that hits. Sometimes there's overlap. I worked on a brief for a commercial last week, like on Friday or Thursday, where they had a little bit of a library poll, but then they also wait for the. They also have like an animatic from the commercial or something like this and if you wanted to, you can jump on that and score that. Or sometimes they ask for both, do a demo and send stuff from your library. But a brief essentially is you get an email with hey, we need this and that.

Speaker 3: 46:25

Right, thank you Right. And in the songwriting, like scoring side, it's more like this is what the visuals will look like. Create something that suits this mood. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: 46:33

And in the past it used to be that you would always get a video. Now, sometimes you get like mood boards and you just get like a description which I get for a library poll. As a composer, it's really difficult, because the film is almost always completely different than what you hear before. But yeah, so I get a lot of briefs and it's a matter of like managing this time. And then I also have partners. I have people that are more successful than me in this world and that know my music and that pass on my music.

Speaker 2: 47:12

All right, great, thank you. What do you think about the completely like indie side of things, where, instead of looking at commercials, tv shows, brands and big corporations and stuff like that, what about the you know tons of creators these days, youtube channels, podcasters, all these people that need music all the time? Is that something that is maybe a little easier to get into? Or maybe it's even harder, or I don't know what are your thoughts on this, because I hear this recommendation a lot where people are like, well, it's Microsynx.

Speaker 2: 47:42

Yeah exactly what people say, like it's almost impossible to get the big gigs sort of speak, or like you do to get into this world and takes forever, but it's totally doable to monetize your music or make your music heard or get your music played on on like YouTube channels, podcasts, all these these lots of creators now out out there. Is that? Yeah, what are your thoughts on this in general?

Speaker 1: 48:03

So, I think, generally, when you hear information that has to do with Facebook, youtube and stuff like this, there is a very strong self interest of these platforms to tell you things that make you go and use those platforms, of course. So I would be, yes, I would be, I would be mindful and careful with that. I don't think that a regular YouTube guy has any budget for any music.

Speaker 2: 48:27

I mean those libraries specifically that those people use, right? So the YouTubers or creators usually use some. They pay for some kind of subscription so that they can use the music from there, or they pay for a license or whatever. And then there are people, obviously, who create the music for those libraries or those companies, and so that's why I'm what I'm thinking.

Speaker 1: 48:43

I mean for every like. There's a million tracks and one of these tracks will be used in 100 YouTube videos and make a little bit of money. It's the volume. Business is really rough and it I don't know. I think that my personal thing and this is different for everybody but my personal thing is I kind of I like the concept. Like I make music and do what I do because I like it and I do a lot of things where, whatever with money, because there's cool people, I want to be in the mix, I want to learn something, I want to do something and if you have your favorite YouTube channel, there's somebody that you think is really cool and you figure something out how they can use your music, why not? I don't think it's a valid business model, I don't know. And then I would kind of like, at the same time, like you know, do the song and pitch it to an like e-commercial, because that kind of like makes a little bit more sense. But it's hard to get these things. I think that there's.

Speaker 2: 49:47

How high is the bar actually? Sorry, there was a delay, I thought we were. Yeah, let me say one more thing. There's this?

Speaker 1: 49:52

I think that there is. We as humans, we always kind of fall for the same stories. So right now, I was at the recording Academy on Thursday and they had the most ridiculous, atrocious panel full of people who shouldn't be on a panel talking about how?

Speaker 1: 50:08

great AI is, with none of them having any sense of idea how nonsensical all of the stuff is. They said because part of this is, of course, we're all lazy, we want to press it, but we want to tell somebody make money, and then money comes. You know, you want the money prompt, or let me not have to do the dishes and the dishes are done. Great, of course we like that. It's not realistic. It's not the way it works. The way it works is a it's machine learning. There's no such thing as AI and B. The second thing is it's just a couple of companies that, weirdly enough, all have search engines, just kind of like making your user experience very different. But we all get tricked by it and this idea of oh my goodness, I can do an NFT and I can make millions and, weirdly enough, my wife works at Universal Studios. Three years ago they had a legal training there where the people said NFTs are dead, you can forget about it, and it takes five years for that to arrive with normal people. So there's always this gold rush.

Speaker 1: 51:09

I want to say nonsense about making things simple and easy, and when I moved to LA, the thing was the web series. So you are a writer with no credit. You haven't been in a writing room anywhere, you haven't directed anything, so it a being on a TV show seems very, very far away. In the past, you would have cooked coffee for the writers and you would have been an assistant to somebody and an assistant writer, and then a writer, and then a head writer and at some point, after enough people like you, you may have pitched a show.

Speaker 1: 51:43

When you're in your mid fifties, with the web series idea, it is like, oh my goodness, anybody can have a show. So you get your two friends and you do a show and a million of these pop up. Out of this one million, one works, which is the one who has somebody from France on it, and that is sponsored by Lexus. Kind of not getting the difference here. And so what I'm trying to say with this is there's always like a narrative that seems easy and that's always. You should be always careful when you hear something that sounds this easy.

Speaker 2: 52:20

And anything worth pursuing is usually not easy.

Speaker 3: 52:22

anyways, like it's not easy and I warned in it not being easy.

Speaker 1: 52:26

honestly, yes, and the the some of my artists kind of like hate the sports analogies, but it's at the end of the day, it's. Consistently working in music on your own terms is like winning a gold medal on a regular basis, and in order to do that, you need to train and work really hard, and there are people that are in disciplines at the Olympic Games that don't make a lot of money. They still need to train very hard. There's no easy work around, and so, with these stories, every now and then, somebody has a video on YouTube that gets a gazillion views and it works out, but we don't. We only talk about that person, and ironically, being in LA, I run into these people every now and then, and YouTube then changes the algorithm and their business model stops working, and so I guess what I'm saying is with sync, it's a long game. It's very much about the quality of the music and it's very much also you understanding what is needed, and so I give you an example.

Speaker 1: 53:30

I work with a lot of artists and I encourage them to write songs that mean something to them, that are honest, that are real, that are interesting, and then they are really nice. They do something when you listen to them. Because of that, very often they are not easy to license because they are dark. Most licenses go to commercials and stuff like this. So if you have a song that just goes, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that actually works in your favor. And so you understand. You watch commercials. You see, okay, we have this and this and this style that's coming up. So if I would produce something in that style now I would be too late.

Speaker 1: 54:10

But what could be cool, what gives me energy, what haven't I heard, or something, and then you kind of get a sense of what can work for other people and over time you kind of work yourself to that and then every now and then you get lucky where it works. But there's a lot of I read. One of my favorite quotes that I found recently is the irony is the deliberate removal of nuance, and this is very true here you have. It's a very nuanced business. It has a lot of moving parts and a lot of these moving parts are out of your hand and that's something you need to understand. So I would if there are artists listening, I would keep this door open. Why not? Why not use this? And I would not rely on this, and I would always think about your interaction with somebody in a room that actually hears your song. It's the one thing you really can control. Yes, totally.

Speaker 2: 55:11

And also realizing how high the bar actually is is important. You mentioned a couple of times now the quality of the music. You know the quality of the music and I really think that is important too, because part of that whole you know it's easy kind of narrative is also that you, your chances, are way better. Of course, if what you do is actually great and if it means you need to take more time to get good at this and practice and put in the hours, then of course that's what's needed. And the worst combination, I think, is when people use an easy way to get into a library or whatever, plus not putting in the time to actually make great stuff, and then you know that was just. I mean, if you like it and it's a hobby, great, but then it's a hobby. But if you'd like it and if you want to do it because you actually would love to be successful, it might also be a waste of time.

Speaker 1: 55:52

Yeah, there's also. There's so much music. That's the other. The other problem where what do you add? That's where it becomes interesting. And we had a couple of years ago it was all South African hip hop in everything in, like every commercial, and the cool thing about this was that this music sounded big and pop and sounded fun, but because of the idiosyncrasies and some language things, it had a unique twist on it and you would think this is a song that has been in a hundred commercials and TV shows and that's great. But now you know we've done South Africa, so now something else is happening and these trends and these things change.

Speaker 1: 56:34

And one thing that I think in general that is very useful is if you can do something that is unique but palatable, so something where you go like, wow, I haven't heard this, but I like it. So you know, you push the envelope a little bit and for sync, that's one of the things you want to have. The music. You want the music to bring a little extra and like, almost like it's it's the 110% of an idea, if it's, if it's sports commercials, sometimes the. If you listen some, some of these sports tracks, if you listen to them by themselves, they're ridiculous, they're just so hyper, you kind of like. You just like, what a like? Okay, I'm gonna make myself a camomile, you're not like 10 seconds, but so that these are areas that you you can investigate. And another thing that that does help in the artist is that singer, songwriter stuff and mellow stuff with smaller arrangement does work very well for TV and that that can be useful too.

Speaker 2: 57:33

Cool yeah, and I don't want this to sound, you know I don't want to be, you know, discouraging people or like I want people to be inspired and motivated and I love to encourage people and empower people. I just don't want them to be delusional or have like expectations that can only lead to disappointment later. So what I'm trying to say is definitely there's going to be, you know, someone out there who we've never heard of is sitting in a room somewhere on a laptop making something awesome, and, if you know, at some point we will hear that and he's going to be, or she's going to be, amazing. And so there's always going to be a chance for new people to get into this. And I don't say that, I wouldn't say that anybody should now just give up and not try at all.

Speaker 2: 58:07

I just I would just say what you like, basically repeat what you were saying, that realistic expectations and putting in hard work is really what it takes, because then you also not disappointed if it doesn't work, if you go in with that expectation and if you do it primarily because you love it and then you make music that makes you proud and that you will, that you are happy to share with the world and even if it doesn't become successful, there's still an accomplishment there and you can feel good about it, and it's, I think, that's really important, like thinking about why you're actually making music to not set you up for disappointment.

Speaker 3: 58:38

The takeaway I'm getting from you, lars, and I would love to get confirmation on if I'm perceiving this right. But it's almost like the the knows you get when you submit are are the what leads to a yes? So it's about having a really high quality so that they say no, but they liked it enough that they're going to listen to the next song that you sent them and that might be a yes. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: 58:58

Yes, and I have. I've had sync. Sync agents recommend me for other gigs because of the way my music sounds. Yeah, it just I don't know any other way. My, my, my only kind of business model is be a decent human being and make really cool stuff, and that that's. That's because you have so many, there's so many times that you are in touch with somebody, or whether it's a discussion where this doesn't lead to anything directly, and so I'm not, I'm not going in a meeting I'm thinking like, oh, I'm gonna convince this person or something anymore. I'm just, this is what I do and I try to be. You know, when somebody like I don't miss deadlines and I'm just, I deliver on time, I try to be the easiest possible person to work with. And then they people call back and that's basically. Yeah, that's basically what it boils down to, and and it's.

Speaker 1: 59:59

I want one more addition. I said this, but I would like to stress it the, the pipeline is king in music and pop music, and I have an example that I keep, keep, keep using where the Recording Academy, this little for the producers, engineers, wing this Grammy Songcraft award, where they had a couple of categories and then people from different genres, one, one of those that they did this once before the pandemic and they haven't done it since, and so I had one of the songs that kind of won this, this little thing, and Nobody has heard this song and outside of those guys who decided, and the reason for that is that the artist was difficult and we weren't with the label she were less difficult and we were with a bigger label this would have been a hit. Now nobody knows the song and I think that it takes. There's a lot of bands or people in In in their garage and saying this whole system is rigged and ironically, they're right.

Speaker 1: 1:00:58

It is, but you cannot use here's a weird thing to say you cannot use reality as an excuse. At the end of the day, the only way around this System is that you just deliver something that is as good as any major label and you work your way there. And One is the pipeline of professionals around you to help you to make this, and the other one is the pipeline of professionals when it's done. And I have a number of friends who had a Couple of years, really, really good years, and then things died down and it's. They changed publishers and and, and it's a lot of times it's these, so like these, these the sharing and having a good partner can be really Like, really really important for this.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

Thank you. Let's get to a couple of more, a couple more questions, and you just tell me if we're running out of time. I just try to get other people's questions in as well. I know, brian, you had some more, but I am gonna, you know, skip between different people now, just so the others get a chance as well. So we go from Brian to Ryan. Now Ryan's also a student of ours in the syndicate and he says and actually this is Ryan and Manel, they have almost asked the same questions. I'm gonna put those two together. They are saying Ryan says what tools, systems or techniques Do you use to build structure in your day and allow yourself the time to write music? And Manel says how does a day of work looks like, look like for you, and do you organize your tasks very well, or it is a more an improvised workflow? So, to go together kind of how do you structure your day, any tool, systems, techniques you use to actually make sure you have time to write music, and our productive.

Speaker 1: 1:02:39

Yeah. So first thing is I, I get up early, I Quickly check if there's anything on fire, and I have a lot of European clients, so there's a chance. I even though waking up early, Something's on fire.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

Yeah, there's a chance that something is on fire or somebody needs something very quickly. If that's the case, I jump on it. If not, I I walk half an hour, grab a coffee, walk half an hour back and While I am at the coffee I answer, answer emails and kind of structure and see what needs to be done. Then I walk back and then I usually start working on the sessions and the things that I have to do and Work for a while and then usually I get the first, unless it's a bigger project. I get basically stuff under control in two, three hours send everything out, switch off the computer, do the other coffee and Okay, oh, sorry, just so people understand.

Speaker 2: 1:03:39

Did you say two to three hours for the first kind of draft that you?

Speaker 1: 1:03:42

know it's just the first batch, the first session, so, like sometimes, it's.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

Okay, it's it's.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

It's can be so. For example, today I wrap the mix and something that produced an wrench yesterday and there is in in the vocal. There is a st at the end of the word trust list Is not as powerful as it needed to be, so I got the notes back. Mix is approved, everything is done, but I need the st from somewhere. So I put this on the list and Somewhere in a demo, somewhere she's saying a very powerful, nice st. Splice it in render again. Now this is red.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

So you know, this is like this takes some time, and then I answer the brief. This takes some time. So this is a, and sometimes it's just like I'm working on a commercial and it's three hours of the same, but it's it's. It's one chunk, one like session, one of the day, and when I'm done with this I Second longer, walk coffee Basically, then add coffee. What am I doing with the second session? Walking back, and then I work a little more.

Speaker 1: 1:04:49

This is all very flexible, but the things that really play into this is sunlight, movement, the resting my eyes from like being outside and not having the close focus, and there's all kinds of stuff I do from like bone broth, mctc 8 or like medicinal mushrooms, all the, all, the, every possible.

Speaker 1: 1:05:10

I tried every possible thing and I found a couple of things that work for me, but I think, yeah, what is important is that I ramp up the energy all the way to about like 4 pm or something, and then things change at 4 pm and I structure my my. If there's a unpleasant conversation I need to have which has become very rare, but it's not gonna happen after 4 pm, and so I have a power up To a certain time and then power down, and then my phone is an airplane mode fairly early and nobody can reach me anymore. Nice, and with that I'm I I'm relaxed, happy and Peaceful. I don't use any tools. I also stopped making this really long list. I have like a little notepad next to me here where I usually have only like five, six things on there.

Speaker 2: 1:06:02

You get a lot of meetings or call re.

Speaker 1: 1:06:04

Sorry, sorry. I have long, longer term projects or something where which I kind of gradually work up over over time and I try to when, when I don't have any Direct like a project or something or anything on fire, I kind of try to Make sure I kind of maintain my, my, my contacts and friends and people and so, yeah, yeah, but that that's about it no no magical, no magical tools or anything outside of this thing, which I can only recommend to the kitchen timer, the 30 minute thing, so so it just I'm gonna get it just so works for me, because I sit down With something and when you give yourself 30 minutes, it just streamlined so many things I'm I don't get lost on research online.

Speaker 2: 1:06:57

I don't like a lot of things, just yeah wrapping something up and the work expands with the time you give it.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

Yeah, yeah, so I have that. That Answered the question.

Speaker 2: 1:07:08

Yeah, totally did. I mean. I mean I love that and also I found it remarkable that was something I was about to say. Anyways, when I talk to you before and we had email exchange and schedule the session, it was exceptionally easy to to work with you and to get this booked on the calendar. Like I'm used to people who are like busy and successful and whatever that we talked to on the podcast or that I do meetings with in other Areas that it's always very, very difficult to get them to define the slot that works for everybody, and like everybody has such busy schedules, and then they reschedule and it's like always this a lot of times it's such a pain and you were like, well, I'm pretty flexible, yeah, let's do this. Yeah, let's schedule it now. Fine, perfect, there was the easiest thing ever and that I love that, first of all, and then it also shows that you are really kind of relaxed and you still get your work done and that is impressive to me. So what?

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

My final question to this on this topic would be Do you actually get a lot of, you know, do you have to do a lot of meetings and calls, and especially with people in other time zones? Because I find that this is the Number one thing that tends to sabotage my days. I'm very structured. I'm a very structured person, I have a great team and great systems and I juggle a couple of things. I have two businesses and all of that and the family and whatnot. But the one thing that keeps sabotaging me a little bit and I haven't found a solution really for is that I need to jump on Calls with people in different time zones fairly regularly, and this is kind of depending on how many of those I allow, but this can kind of keep me from having these focus blocks without interruption, or it means that I have to jump on calls at we are times and then my social life suffers and all of that. So I just assume that you have to do a lot of these as well. So I'm wondering how you handle those.

Speaker 1: 1:08:44

Yeah, so I, europe is really easy because I wake up early in the morning and so I have a, I have a time slot for Europe and that that's not a problem. I. Every now and then it when, when it goes to like China or Saudi Arabia or Australia, gets a little bit more tricky, but it's not like a constant I. I try to have my work day in In in a certain set of hours, so it's not, it's not like a constant problem and I think me getting up and having mainly European clients really kind of works out Well, because I can like it's not a problem for somebody in the UK to be available at 4 30 pm, more in Germany at 5 or something, and and that works. I also try to limit the amount of video calls. It's like I mean I'm not. I think video calls much better than not seeing somebody. But if, if somebody is in anywhere close by or something, I just kind of like you know, let's do a week later about over coffee in real life, I don't know. I mean it's I.

Speaker 1: 1:09:52

What I noticed was I had a time when I worked on a lot of commercials where I tried to get these production companies and people booked into slots and then it was just frustration and fighting and like billing issues where, okay, but our shoot lasted a day longer, so we're getting to you three days later and essentially essentially Nothing. Nobody ever delivers on the time, they say to me. So if somebody reaches out, we're doing this commercial something, you know, we'll have something for you in Tuesday. It's never there on Tuesday and so and I do get, I do get lots and lots of briefs and stuff where I need to like write complicated orchestral stuff where people literally call me on the day and it, you know, 24 hour turnover. So my entire what I did in the past is I would pack my calendar and then these calls would come in and it would get problematic, and so now I don't really pack my calendar that much anymore and I Arrange the things like so, if I, let's say, I work with an artist and we make a deal that this is a, they get a favorable rate and very early in the conversation I'm telling them okay, if this and this comes in, we'll push the session by a day and Mm-hmm, you know, you figure out something like this and I I like to be like I noticed that there's just like you know multitasking makes you stupid.

Speaker 1: 1:11:21

Is is, but there's just so many. There's a workflow if you are, if you are in a, I don't know you have a farm or something. You need to do a million things in a farm, but if you've been a farmer long enough, you do that without burning you out.

Speaker 1: 1:11:37

You know, it's just like you understand this, this animal, it's this. I need to do this here and there and I kind of I figured out a way where I can glide through the day and get everything done and where I still have enough flexibility for these, these briefs and these commercials. And yeah, most importantly, of course as this is maybe more for the German listeners, but most importantly that all the Champions League games are blocked in my calendar. So this is kind of vital. Vital stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:12:04

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:12:05

Totally is awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:12:06

Thank you so much for this. Now another great question from Mike here. Mike Sison, he says and that's interesting actually do songs have to be at the release level, like completely done and ready to be considered for sync, or is a demo an Acceptable means of getting picked and, provided the song is done on time by deadline, like, is this a thing that you ever submit a demo or a draft of something?

Speaker 1: 1:12:27

So, basically, if a music supervisor so I had this case on I pitched something on Friday and I got it. I got a brief and on the brief there was an amount how much money they have for the music, for this commercial. And I pitched somebody I've worked with and usually that money would be far, far below what they would charge. But I asked them and they were okay and I send it. So, technically speaking, what is possible is that you pitch to something and you get a tenth of the money you would get if they would call you because they want your song, and so this relationship is very important because For most people they don't get the call that somebody wants your specific song. So to ask that, that demo question, if you have like, let's say, somebody loves what you do, they've seen you live and they're an advertising producer, they love the tone of your voice, this and this and this and this, and they say, hey, we are doing this campaign, we need a song that has these words in it and you send a demo. That's great, that can be enough, that can be fine. Then again, as everybody can mix at home, now the idea of a demo is a little weird, because I Basically constantly need to produce, release really stuff like every 24 hours, so you might as well send the best possible thing you can.

Speaker 1: 1:13:47

But it is true it can be a valid point. If people reach out to you and if you have a direct relationship with a production or something, you can send a demo. As a general rule, I'm not a big fan of this. Social media is public. I'm not like when people people say, oh, I'm doing a hundred songs in a hundred day challenge or, like you know, you send out something that's not finished in a public space. I'm not a big fan of that. I'm a fan of you work till it's done and then make your move. But there can be exceptions when people reach out to you with a specific project.

Speaker 2: 1:14:22

Yeah, totally. I mean, it depends on the person a little bit. I've worked with people who they work until it's good and then release it, and it works for them because they still get it done. And then there's other type of person who will never release anything. Yeah, if they don't finally, like you know, find the courage to release something that they maybe not consider completely done. Like they just have to build that muscle of hitting, publish, of releasing, of asking at least a friend for their opinion or whatever. Some people just never get stuff out at all and overthink things and take forever to finish stuff. So it kind of depends a little bit on the person. But in general I am totally with you there that the quality is always most important and you don't, you probably don't want to have a huge catalog of stuff out that you don't really like at the end. So yeah, I would like to add, finishing things is also important.

Speaker 1: 1:15:06

So yeah, finishing things is important, and I Think you kind of you push, you push, you push and then, when you've reached the level that you have at the moment, the best possible. It's a little bit like the it is what it is. You push as hard as you can and then you can say it is what it is. So, same thing you, you do your very best, you don't have acid, and then you release it and with the release, more learning and more updates can happen, and there's there's a value to that. I also really like there's a this quote you can act your way into thinking, but you can't think your way into acting, and that's that's something where, if you create something, you create facts and then Conversations can start which can be useful. So, yeah, sitting on your material doesn't doesn't help it doesn't help.

Speaker 2: 1:15:58

I totally understand. Yeah, that makes total sense what you're saying, that great. The next one is a tag team, one from between, like Ryan and Manel. Again, I'm going to put the two together one more time because they have similar questions. So Ryan says what are some of the most common roadblocks you see musicians encounter when developing their songwriting skills and that's really cool what he says. Now, what is one actionable step they can take to make progress today? Songwriting musicians typical roadblocks, and what can they do today?

Speaker 1: 1:16:24

Yeah, the, if you learn some, if you learn some of the music, you can learn the music. You can learn a skill somewhere. If you go to school or something, there's usually a you know like somebody is sending you for like a work experience to get practical experience to add to the theoretical stuff that you just learned. The beautiful thing is you can. You can combine two valid things as an artist, which is work with somebody for your next release, and what that means is you get real life, hands on experience how it is. But you also, kind of like can maybe pick their brain, and I would strongly, strongly, strongly encourage you to always work with people who have written more than you. And you can combine that where, instead of paying songwriting school, you can pay a songwriter or a producer with songwriting chops and work together. So you get the real life and, if that person is kind enough, or if this part of the deal, the theoretical background for this as well.

Speaker 1: 1:17:24

So this is, this would be something that that's a good, actionable step If you want to do stuff by yourself and a very I'm going to say this it's nobody ever does it, it's super wild, wildly unpopular, but it's absolutely true the absolute basis of Western music is counterpoint, and counterpoint comes before courts. Courts were invented long, long long after counterpoint. Everybody can throw some courts together. Until you understand how counterpoint works, you're limited to this.

Speaker 1: 1:17:58

I want to hear more about that and this is a classical composition thing, and it is also where I'm like I have this like like keep saying it, interviews or two people, I don't know a good book on songwriting, because the problem is you always think on songwriting. People think in songwriting of okay, I'm picking up a guitar playing a couple of courts and then I sing to it. But that is a vertical thinking that was invented long, long long after people made music that touched people, and to know how counterpoint works and to write to contrasting melodies and to be able to do good voice leading. And this thing opens up your writing. There's more than courts. There is understanding what the friction between intervals do, and so that's something that I would look into.

Speaker 1: 1:18:51

Like counterpoint, I think it's very interesting and the basis of kind of classical music and harmony, melody and composition, but in a classical music context, not in a rock and pop context, because a big problem with a lot of songwriting books is you get tried and tested cliches that a million people have done before. And the second thing maybe that's kind of interesting is need to understand that structure should be an expression of the content. Structure shouldn't be the content. So meaning, you know everybody's talking about verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus is because, yes, you hear that a lot on the radio, but that's not for every song. And structure is a very important creative expression and you need to make sure that you are available to understand structure well enough and adjust structure so you're not trying to force every single melody into this, every single thing. So that would be two.

Speaker 2: 1:19:50

Ryan just asked about the counter thing. Like do you mean like writing a counter melody or is there specific actual like?

Speaker 1: 1:19:56

we're talking like you know how an athlete would now like, kind of like, stop doing the game for a while and work on on a specific side skill that they would then bring back to their game. Counterpoint is, like you know, I would learn counterpoint actually like in classical music, where you learn how to write a second melody over a first melody and a third melody. And if you, if you listen to like a lot, lots of metal bands have pseudo classical intros for their songs, yeah, it takes any train composer three seconds to know if anybody there knows counterpoint or not. It's, it's very, very obvious and that's, that's, that's the skill that will help you to arrange strings later for for your, for your songs, and it's not easy, it's not fun, but it's incredibly useful.

Speaker 2: 1:20:48

Great, and just, brian. So you know, I just looked up the definition here real quick and I hope you agree with that, are you? That's what you're talking about, is the first sentence here says in music, counterpoint is the relationship between two or more musical lines or voices which are harmonically interdependent, yet independent in rhythm and melodic contour. Yeah, awesome, yeah, you can look it up and then dive more into this. This is very interesting for me as well. Like I've never thought about it, like I know what that is because I'm a classical piano. Like I've learned that classical piano training for 15 years or so when I was a kid. So that's, I'm familiar with these theoretical things, but I've never. I kind of I don't know why I kind of stopped looking at it like this when I since I've been working in rock and pop and that sort of stuff. So very interesting, cool, great, thank you. And so you wanted to add a third one, I guess. Right, I interact with you with the counter thing.

Speaker 1: 1:21:35

Yeah, I think one thing that is is important is in when you have phrases in phrases and song melodies and they, they want to be as long as they want to be, and I find myself having a lot of two over four bars so I have, like the verse that is, seven and a half bars or eight and a half bars because of the phrase, what the phrase was, what the melody was, and I think that especially if you use a DAW when you're song, right, we kind of all get trapped in these cubes and fours and eights and stuff and very often when it's nobody likes them will not on this speaker that keeps on the same level without a break or anything. So you want to have sharp edges, juxtaposition, uneven lengths and all of these things and you want to give every melody some some life to it. It is not too predictable and it is custom every time and that that's, that's the. That that would be number three. So, like you know, you're writing a melody and see if the melody through the verse to have this thing.

Speaker 1: 1:22:56

One of my artists I drew these things to explain like how we need to get to the end of the phrase and this intersection, and you want to be able to create units and, like you, want to have a verse that really leads you into the chorus, and sometimes that is eight bars, sometimes seven and a half bars. Sometimes the initial melody you have, if you really look at it, runs out of steam at six bars. So you kind of need to tackle the end. So what I guess what I'm saying is is an extension of the thing with the content should, like the melody and the music should drive the structure, not the other way around is make sure that everything lives, breeze, goes up, is interesting, and that you're not relying on the fours and eights too much, you know if a melody wants to be seven and a half bars.

Speaker 1: 1:23:49

Let it be seven and a half bars, awesome, awesome.

Speaker 2: 1:23:52

I know Ryan is going to appreciate that. So Ryan is the one who kind of refuses to use anything with the four and eight. Nice yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: 1:24:01

I wrote a little, a little show like a little stinger for a show theme and it's it's really interesting how much time you can spend on these 12 seconds and I had a two, two over four, four, four, three, eight, four, four bar and played around with it and I realized at some point that this little two over four bar in the beginning it just it's so. When I took this out, it so changed the perception of the entire thing, because now before it was one to we gradually start and then this happens when I take out, the two over four was straight in it and we have two aggregates of four over four, but the three over eight in the middle makes you jump up for when, when the second four over four hits, and that's kind of like that's, that's the, the essence, the real life to it. And, oh, I have a fourth one dissonance is, dissonance is your friend.

Speaker 2: 1:24:58

The tension and release kind of thing, the dissonance, and then also when it, when it's over again, that kind of relief you get great, love it. Thank you so much. And then another one that kind of everybody asked is there any specific you know libraries that are maybe not? I mean, it's back to the whole it not being easy thing, but are there any kind of libraries that are maybe not not so super hard to get into? Or are do you know of any like niche sort of opportunities or libraries for people who are in, I don't know, maybe the heavy music world where it's not not the typical thing you would use on the TV commercial or other genres, or hip hop or whatever? Do you know any of these?

Speaker 1: 1:25:35

like any, any pointers, anything we can, what I can say is that when, when I don't know what to do with people, what I tell them is there's a library called so stereo, where the owner is a nice guy, and that was the one time I saw a contract where I thought, oh, this is somebody who's fair and nice and understands you know you should and should not ask for so those are nice guys. Of course, like any other library, they are going to get bigger and bigger and it gets harder and harder to be pitched or get something. But I like those guys. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know any specific other you, you I would look out for. You can see fairly easy, easily now with social media, who does what, and then you can see if there's somebody who is in your world who is doing very well. But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:26:29

Yeah, okay, yeah, that's great. Just be careful is the basic thing you're saying. You just don't want people to get into something that they regret later, so that's totally fair. Great, the final thing about becoming up to the to the end of this slot that we have, and I want to be respectful of your time. But maybe one thing, maybe that I'm personally interested as well, and I also got a question from Danish about this. It's not really a specific question, he just says I want to hear about the rap stuff, like about ghostface, killer and any other rappers you've worked with, and I noticed that in your portfolio as well, that you have some of these projects and I don't know what exactly you've done to those. But how did you get into that world from your classical background and from the score and movie and branding thing, but then also working with these rappers?

Speaker 1: 1:27:06

So if you go back to how rap started, where you know you're pissed with life, what's going on in your, in your street, in your city, and somebody lays down a beat and you just basically tell them about your day, and it's very direct, it's honest, it's real and it's not super polished, but it just. I like the directors and if you go into all the hip hop, there's like great lyricists and great storytelling, and then I also just like the flow, I like the swing of it and I like stuff that makes you nod, and so I just I don't know, I always had it. I kind of was always interested and I worked with a couple of artists and then one thing that happened, the Ghostface Killer and a couple of other acts came through 88 Rising, where there's like Zhejiang, niki, rich Bryan, and these were just somebody at 88 Rising that keeps booking me and likes what I do, and so I mixed commercials with them, documentaries with them, live shows for broadcast in the US and China, and so I worked on that side. But I've also basically wrote songs and if you go on my Instagram, there's a Toyota commercial with a rap track, which I did with a rapper called TrueDeaf.

Speaker 1: 1:28:29

It's just, it's fun, I like the world, I like the work and it's a little bit I'm kind of excluding myself a little bit from some of this world, because there's people that will only do one session and you send them a beat, they rap over it and it's very kind of. It's very yeah, let's just do as much as we can. So I kind of need to work with the rapper who's happy to come back for a third session and for all the polishing and all of this, and who appreciates that I don't know like I'm developing the brass themes in the background and that stuff. So that's not for everyone, but I do like it and I like the energy and it licensed well and yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:29:14

Interesting. Thank you, awesome, malcolm. Do you have any? I see you writing all the time and you probably have a ton of questions as well, so I'm sorry. I kind of let the audience take over today because I got all these questions, but please feel free to add, they covered a lot of my stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:29:26

For me, for sure, the audience questions were great, but I think I would like to hear and I alluded to it earlier like how the business side of you partnering with a group like a band, for example, as our audience is how that works. So just so our audience can kind of get an idea of what that might look like. Is it like are they paying you a fee? Is it a back end ownership kind of situation? Is it a combination like? How does it generally work if a, let's say, a rock band approached you and wanted to write a song and produce it with you?

Speaker 1: 1:29:57

So in well different the writing comes into ways. One way is somebody else comes with a strong pipeline, strong career, strong whatever, and you just write together. So if somebody calls you and says, hey, this artist so and so needs a new song, and I'm the writer, you're not asking. Nobody would ask for money, you just go in the session and write it and so that's. That's one option and it's also if I don't have to produce, if I don't have to manage, it's a lot less time and it's a lot less responsibility. So with bigger acts or people where this, this makes sense, this happens for most. In most cases it's I get paid for my time as well, which is basically because I'm the person that also manages the, the songwriting and the development and stuff. And that usually means if I you see how much I co-write, sometimes there's stuff where some people come with like a finished song and I punch it up a little bit and then you agree on like a smaller percentage. Or we write together and I do like this. Some people do this where you just, when you write together, you just split it. That's just the way it is Like. So if somebody comes with a song and I punch it up, it's a little. It's a little simpler.

Speaker 1: 1:31:15

Or if you write like an entire I did like write an entire album with an artist you just split everything 50-50 and the the payment is for your time, it's not for the, for the song.

Speaker 1: 1:31:26

You know, it's kind of like because right, it also in most cases would be I'm writing for something, so that the kind of it's like I'm not writing what I want in my style today, I'm writing in your style, what you want, you know. So that's that's, and then it depends on on how it rolls out. But this is usually a discussion that takes like three minutes because the writing aspect of it is not the most time consuming and not the most expensive compared like especially for rock band, and you can't do something. If they, somebody wants to do an album or something, you can, you know, do a three-day weekend somewhere and just knock everything out in shape. Or you can do work on the songs and it goes from me being there and playing to. Somebody sends you something and you recut it in logic and kind of make suggestions. So it can be very, very different.

Speaker 2: 1:32:18

So you're talking about the writing part, you're not like producing a record.

Speaker 1: 1:32:21

Yeah, I'm talking about the writing part, because sometimes the way it is, where I don't know people are not in LA and they they work on something and they send me a song and then I basically like I sometimes just use the stereo file. But sometimes when people have I don't know they're working on something and somebody has a MIDI file or they do have some stems or they just put a couple of microphones in the rehearsal space, then I would just go into that demo and kind of rearrange the demo and write on top of it. So like it can be, can be different. I also do have a lot of cases where people already are in mixing and everything is recorded, where you try to fix up things and on that's kind of like I call it. It's like it's almost like you backseat produce or backseat write when the first steps didn't lead to the results.

Speaker 1: 1:33:06

So it can be very to answer the question can be very the different approaches, but usually like the percentages and all this stuff is is done fairly easy because it often is self-explanatory. So you have something that really needs a string arrangement and nothing else, then I'm not getting any of them. I'm not asking for royalties because I'm just doing a string arrangement, but then sometimes you see that a chorus doesn't pop and I make the chorus pop and that's the biggest, most important thing in a pop song, and then then it's a different, different thing. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:33:42

Right, so it's case by case.

Speaker 1: 1:33:43

It really is case by case. Yeah, it's also I, if I can say something to people here is.

Speaker 1: 1:33:50

So I know, like I had like a a little session with, like Katie Perry's team and other people that it's very they, they don't talk about this, and where it's a lot of money, it's kind of like, okay, it's these five people in the room, it's 25 each or 20 each or it's you know, we're writing for blah blah blah.

Speaker 1: 1:34:09

She gets 20% and then you know, okay, whoever's in the room they share the last 40, or usually with with good people. It's really quickly. And I had a case where I worked with a very good singer who had not much experience in like being her own artist and she had a song which I got in shape, and then we were, we were done, and the manager was, her manager was here and thanked me and she paid me, and then she puts like, says like so, so you know it's, it's, it's five percent of royalties for this, okay, and the manager just looks at me and says I'm so sorry, I'm gonna talk to her and I'll call you later and and it's just like, if you, if you're reasonable and nice, it works. It works out quick in most of the cases. And what I think is important to to know is that you, you kind of want to cut in people who've done something because you want them to talk about the song as well and yeah but I don't know there's no, great, yeah, no, that that's an awesome answer.

Speaker 3: 1:35:20

And the there was like a little hidden takeaway in there that I hadn't really ever thought about. In your profession of being hired to like like, as you said, backseat produce, it's like okay, we've recorded the song, but it didn't work. It's not, it doesn't. It's not what we want. Can we fix it? And finding somebody like yourself to come in and bring fresh ideas to it is like a super cool concept.

Speaker 1: 1:35:38

Yeah, and very often there is something it's kind of. It's kind of interesting how, if you, I had, I had a. I had a project where I basically dropped almost everything but the really well recorded drums in the beginning and we had vocals and drums and it was like rock song and it felt so much wilder and more energetic without all the other stuff going on. And then sometimes it's just one thing that a lot of people struggle with is is for a chorus to be really good, and so very often the trick is to rewrite the end of the verse before and it's like small, small stuff like this and it can also be. I was at the like at an event here where they flew in all of this music export thing in that happens in LA every year and they some some band from England, flew in to play there and they they sounded kind of like coldplay a little bit and they had a good singer. They were like everything kind of worked. And then they play a chorus and none of the nobody is singing background vocals and they are a four, they were a four piece or something. So there's like zero chorus lift and of course the coldplay trick is that you have it's like it's a four million people band that are all singing mms and rs. When the chorus hits and it's, it's sometimes it's small stuff like this these guys album with proper background vocals, with a bigger chorus lift, is a completely different album, because with the chorus lift you have the drop to the verse after you have this stronger sense of ab, you have this kind of like the scope, and without it you don't, and so sometimes it can be pretty simple things that just need to be thought out or done well.

Speaker 1: 1:37:29

One good example is I went to a showcase and a a singer and I always think it's kind of important that the music somehow matches your look. And she has a certain look and just a little bit of like a sensual thing in her music and she starts singing in the certain areas in her voice where she has a lot of low resonance and you're listening to her story and it's almost like she's singing at you. It works really well. And then we're just going a note or two up and you can see that the way she approaches, the note changes and all the low aspects in her voice disappear and so now everything is gone. That her look heard the central, everything is just gone.

Speaker 1: 1:38:11

And if some producer or somebody would have just worked on this and said, okay, we need the diaphragm back in here and even though you're like a note or two up, we need that base in your voice as well. So if you produce this song and it comes out kind of straight, normal, it doesn't do anything. But you get her back in the studio and you have her either make this thicker or you can see if you can do I don't know the octave below or something, and all of a sudden you stay with her through the song. Now we lose her through the song and then couple of arrangement things. So there's, it's, it's, it's a really interesting thing and it's kind of it's like. It's like Sudoku. You sit at home with these parts that already exist. It can be fun, man so that's so interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:39:00

I just I want to shout out Philip Cronin, who's here in the backstage as well, listening to this. Now I, after my time in LA, after we've met, I flew to Arkansas to produce or co-produce a record there with him. He's an amazing artist and he's written a record and some of the songs were not fully written yet or were lacking some ideas, and so he needed kind of writing help, sometimes a little bit arrangement help. Other songs were almost done and it was a mix of like making sure we get we had a week time at this at his place there and so it was a mix of like getting the important recordings down that he needed to do, like his vocals and some guitar parts, but then also doing as much of the writing and arrangement together while we're in the room and have that energy, and then I would take those files with me here and now we're kind of finishing the record. I play some parts, he plays some parts, we get some session players in, and now we're in front of this puzzle that you just described.

Speaker 2: 1:39:49

So we started with scratch tracks and demos.

Speaker 2: 1:39:51

We've we got to the most important part quickly, parts quickly so that we could record them at his place.

Speaker 2: 1:39:56

And now we take these skeletons of songs basically and partially recorded songs and add whatever is necessary, and I feel it's a very fun process. But the challenge with that also is that you are getting really close to the songs at some point. If you spend a long time working on on that and if you've listened a lot to the demos demo, it is a thing right. So some of these songs have been on his hard drive for a long, long time and now approaching them with a fresh perspective, removing things, adding new things and Philip is very, very open and and it's not a problem at all but I think even to me, having worked on this just for a little while now it's it can be a challenge if you get too close to all the elements of those songs and and I need to kind of rearrange things and get rid of things that already exist and stuff like that and that's why the second person that's also where where this comes in the ideal scenario is you.

Speaker 1: 1:40:46

You find somebody that that thinks a little different from you, that you get along with that you like, but that looks at things differently. And then, yeah, and also feedback loop I have when I work on something, I always send it out to a couple of people and it's it's very, very interesting how different the view on the material is, and not just good and bad, it's just where people listen so differently and it can be yes, can be useful for the demo artists and stuff. I mean, it's a little difficult for him because he's had these songs for such a long time. But what I would do is you know, you do, I don't know you work on two songs on a Monday and two songs on a Tuesday, and it goes on like this and by the time you get back, like if you have the time to do this, you come back to something. After three, four, five days, your ears are a lot fresher and I, yeah, I that that can help a little.

Speaker 1: 1:41:42

But it's it's an interesting puzzle and I one thing that I read somewhere that's like how we, how we enjoy contrast and as a perception thing in like pop, like quiet and loud and this, and so I'm what I do sometimes when I get material like this is I'm, I am, I'm going in there to be difficult and make sharp, sharp chops like machete chops, like wild, wild, loud, soft drop out or or things, and also with like, with dissonance, which can be really interesting, where very often stuff is just too clean. Where you go in is like how can I create trouble here, like what can I do here to to mess this up?

Speaker 2: 1:42:31

and yeah, yeah, thank you so much for that. Yeah, this is exactly what we're doing now. Is this like after this intense, you know, eight or nine days it was, I don't know like week that we had together. We took a little break from it and now we I do kind of weekly sessions and he does sessions on his part, and we can update each other weekly and take breaks in between just to stay fresh. Of course, it also needs to be finished at some point, but it's not this full-on 24 seven intense thing all the time, because you just get too close to it. And yeah, thank you, that's great, malcolm. Anything else you want to add that? I feel like we could go on forever. It's interesting, but like anything else, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:43:05

I do think we could go on forever. This is not really a thing. But you, when you're talking about that singer's voice not being able to hold that same emotion when they saying hire, I started trying to imagine if Coldplay had not used like a falsetto or mid voice any of their songs and he just belted chest voice instead, and how terrible that would have been for him.

Speaker 1: 1:43:23

It's, you're right, it's a lot of emotion change but I mean it's just the tone of a voice, it's interesting how to see how, like, there is a very unique, very appealing voice, but also a limited voice and playing to the strength of that and then basically say we live in like this, this much head voice, and then we do falsetto on top and there's a range in between.

Speaker 1: 1:43:46

That is not getting service, probably for good, good reason, and but it's yeah, I think that the as a singer, it's interesting how you you can be deaf to what works and what doesn't work in your own voice, and there's usually something where a lot of people start this relationship with singing in a live context. And in a live context then you are hyped up differently, the audience is different and and you kind of like you, you have the first people to like what you do. You may have played a couple of shows or lots of shows, and then changes to go into recording and thinking about it strategically. And this is where, like the vocal production thing is, is is interesting, where you have you have somebody who is like I had this today like an artist who's very sporty, has a good energy, but we're doing a very kind of like mellow, beautiful, almost sensual song where it's okay, let's, let's sing this again and let's make all teas sound like these and like let's just back up a little and you play around with mouth shapes and all of these things that a singer probably wouldn't think about when they, when they're working and I had somebody here who was, who had like a country draw or were like this, a lot of that and there's a moment in the phrase where that can be really cool. But when you have three vowels like this after each other, you lose all contour and all shape and and everything. There's just a lot of like these things with voices that that are fascinating, and it's also the, the, the pre-empt microphone and how.

Speaker 1: 1:45:34

And then, of course, there are singers that are great live and they struggle in the studio. How do you work around that? And yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's fun. I woke up, producing is fun and can be wild. I had one case where I worked with somebody and we played showcases and there was a song which had a consistent build up and was not easy to to sing and she killed it live a couple of times and when it came to recording it in the studio, it never worked. And you're like how? So I mean at some point then you just, okay, we'll play this song live again. I make sure that her feet is recorded as directly as possible and you try to splice the live version in there or something like this like a million, you know a million things that can come up, right, yeah it's a whole nother wrap before we can go down man.

Speaker 2: 1:46:24

Thank you so much for your time, lars. This was really amazing.

Speaker 3: 1:46:27

I'm very sorry, guys that I can't.

Speaker 2: 1:46:29

It can't go through all the questions because there are many more, but I at least everybody got the chance to ask some questions, and if I don't get, if I didn't get to all eight of your questions, sorry for that, but I feel like most of it was covered anyways. So Brian says thank you, lars, this was awesome, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:46:43

I agree 100%.

Speaker 2: 1:46:45

So thank you so much for your time and, like last but at least of course, where can people find you, contact you, learn more about you? Where should we point people like your socials, your website, whatever's the best way to get in touch with you?

Speaker 1: 1:46:58

or learn more about you and your work. The website is fine and I'm on Instagram and Facebook, yeah, but yeah, I'm gonna put all those links in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 1:47:09

Yeah, thank you, yeah, exactly if it's all gonna be in the description of the youtube video and as well as the show notes. If you go to the self-recording bandcom, slash the number of the episode. This is always going to lead to the detailed show notes and everything, all the links. Everything's always there and, yeah, I really appreciate you, lars.

Speaker 2: 1:47:25

This has been very, very interesting and inspiring and helpful and, yeah, thank you thanks for having me, thank you for coming on and thank you guys for listening and for being live on the chat. I appreciate you as well, of course and, for the night, all the great questions that we got to ask. So appreciate you all. Right, talk to everyone next week. Bye, bye, adios.